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Author Topic: DE or Mike  (Read 2579 times)

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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2011, 01:43:37 PM »
And my concern with him is that even though he can be coached in practice to take an outside path, come game time he goes into "beast-mode" and plays like he did in the clip. He's one of my better defenders but he may be too immature (like most 8-9 year olds) for that position? I'm going to focus on coaching him to play in a more disciplined manner and if he can do so then I'll play him at the force DE position. If not maybe I should move him?

My thinking is that there aren't a lot of 8 or 9 year olds who are mature enough to handle things.  That being said, if he plays like he showed in the clip, he will do just fine.   8)
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline jrk5150

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2011, 01:53:20 PM »
Coach my understanding is that the film was not of him playing a 6-3 but asking if the boy was better suited to a DE or Mike in the 6-3.   If he was playing a 6-3 then there are issues to discuss.

I realize that, but I was curious about what I was seeing and how it relates to what I understand to be the desired actions.  I wasn't really commenting on what the op should do, but was saying here's what I see, is my thinking correct?  Just figured I'd use the opportunity to apply the written word to an actual game clip to see where my thinking is at.

Offline Airgekko

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »
I realize that, but I was curious about what I was seeing and how it relates to what I understand to be the desired actions.  I wasn't really commenting on what the op should do, but was saying here's what I see, is my thinking correct?  Just figured I'd use the opportunity to apply the written word to an actual game clip to see where my thinking is at.

I think this is a great opportunity to discuss the force DE in Jacks 6-3. I really appreciate the thoughts and input from everyone.
I can't wait to see how this defense works out this year.  8)

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2011, 08:43:48 PM »
Okay, question for Jack/Shad/whoever -

The way I see it, I'd want to work on #40's path to the ball.  I didn't like that he let #3 come around him like that, to me that's too easy to get hooked.  I'd have wanted him to take maybe a 3-4 foot different path by hitting through #3's outside shoulder, or just hitting through him I guess.  I just don't want anyone coming out of the backfield to have outside leverage on my DE.  Not to mention I want the QB punished for faking a bootleg...

I actually liked the path of the CB, although maybe I don't want my DE as deep.  But he did beat the DE to the ball, just missed the tackle it looked like.

Am I thinking wrong here?


With the 6-3 the "DE" NEVER lines up in front of a block. 
Two reasons: A) This puts the OT/TE or Slot in jeopardy with regard to who do I have.
B) Allows him to get there unencumbered if no one figures out A.

Even if they do figure out A then the OSLB is essentially unblocked.  I have played both with the old version downloaded from Jack's site and the Book version that has a few more wrinkles up its sleeve.  In all honesty I can play Sky/ Red almost all the time.  If the opposition starts to figure it out a bit, then I simply switch to Stack and make them start figuring again.   The only way to really get burned is to have your DB's fail to take their drop steps.  If they stand flat footed or come up too fast your going to get beat by a pass.  The Zone coverage is what allows you to make this happen.  Since its essentially a rotating Zone you should have the cut back covered. 

Perhaps the most important thing I like about this defense is the fact that, if I so choose, I never have to change the look and still accomplish defending a wide variety of offense.  In a sense the OC never really sees the changes thus making it hard to define exactly what I am doing to counter it. 

 ;)   
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2017, 02:32:43 PM »

With the 6-3 the "DE" NEVER lines up in front of a block. 
Two reasons: A) This puts the OT/TE or Slot in jeopardy with regard to who do I have.
B) Allows him to get there unencumbered if no one figures out A.

Even if they do figure out A then the OSLB is essentially unblocked.  I have played both with the old version downloaded from Jack's site and the Book version that has a few more wrinkles up its sleeve.  In all honesty I can play Sky/ Red almost all the time.  If the opposition starts to figure it out a bit, then I simply switch to Stack and make them start figuring again.   The only way to really get burned is to have your DB's fail to take their drop steps.  If they stand flat footed or come up too fast your going to get beat by a pass.  The Zone coverage is what allows you to make this happen.  Since its essentially a rotating Zone you should have the cut back covered. 

Perhaps the most important thing I like about this defense is the fact that, if I so choose, I never have to change the look and still accomplish defending a wide variety of offense.  In a sense the OC never really sees the changes thus making it hard to define exactly what I am doing to counter it. 

 ;)   
Great thread as this will help some people new to the D
Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline jrk5150

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 09:45:49 AM »

The only way to really get burned is to have your DB's fail to take their drop steps.  If they stand flat footed or come up too fast your going to get beat by a pass.  The Zone coverage is what allows you to make this happen.  Since its essentially a rotating Zone you should have the cut back covered. 


Actually, having the CB's taking three read steps back when they are already 7-8-9 yards deep when you're playing taps can be a recipe for disaster - if they block the stack, you have an enormous crease in your defense off tackle between Mike and CB.  Playing base/read with the OLB's, I get those read steps.  But if you live in taps, those read steps are dangerous.  It's one of the reasons JJ's D has the CB's coming forward at the snap, trading depth for time to read, because they have to fill that crease if the OL figures out how to block the stacks.  In fact, that's one of the potential areas of weakness in JJ's D, and the CB's backpedaling 3 steps would make it monumentally worse.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2017, 11:32:30 AM »
Actually, having the CB's taking three read steps back when they are already 7-8-9 yards deep when you're playing taps can be a recipe for disaster - if they block the stack, you have an enormous crease in your defense off tackle between Mike and CB.  Playing base/read with the OLB's, I get those read steps.  But if you live in taps, those read steps are dangerous.  It's one of the reasons JJ's D has the CB's coming forward at the snap, trading depth for time to read, because they have to fill that crease if the OL figures out how to block the stacks.  In fact, that's one of the potential areas of weakness in JJ's D, and the CB's backpedaling 3 steps would make it monumentally worse.

The fundamentals of this Defense are that DB, Safeties, Bandits (Insert terminology here), are Pass First players.  The Sky call does not change that.  If they read their keys correctly (OT, QB) That can cut the drop steps quicker.  Yes, they are "Alley" players against the run fit.  First responsibility is to the Pass.  jmho  Dusty ;)
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline jrk5150

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2017, 11:54:28 AM »
I get it, just saying that, on grass, if you're living/dying with taps/stacks, you're more likely to die if you hit a good off-tackle team and don't adjust anything else.  From depth those CB's can play the pass easily without dropping 3 steps first.  But that's what Jack has, and I respect that.  Works for him, absolutely.  Just a little nuance that I and other coaches have run into with this D and JJ's.

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 11:58:55 AM »

In all honesty I can play Sky/ Red almost all the time.
This is what I did as well
Sky corners 4 yards off line
Red OLBs reading and not blitzing.

John, I am posting this not as a stab but its for the reasons I brought this thread back from the dead, there are some coaches that are still trying to get the defense down in a quick way and I thought this info would help.
Robert

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Offline jrk5150

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 12:04:44 PM »
Understood, which is why I chimed in, specifically with the same purpose.  If I'm putting in this defense cold, I need to know that running a ton of taps without adjusting your CB play could be a problem.

I didn't catch the sky at 4 yards - my bad.  Yes, that's a decent solution in taps because they're at 6-7 yards when reading run, plenty of time to fill.

Offline coachgregory

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 04:00:46 PM »
Actually, having the CB's taking three read steps back when they are already 7-8-9 yards deep when you're playing taps can be a recipe for disaster - if they block the stack, you have an enormous crease in your defense off tackle between Mike and CB.  Playing base/read with the OLB's, I get those read steps.  But if you live in taps, those read steps are dangerous.  It's one of the reasons JJ's D has the CB's coming forward at the snap, trading depth for time to read, because they have to fill that crease if the OL figures out how to block the stacks.  In fact, that's one of the potential areas of weakness in JJ's D, and the CB's backpedaling 3 steps would make it monumentally worse.

No it is not.
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Offline coachgregory

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2017, 04:20:26 PM »
I get it, just saying that, on grass, if you're living/dying with taps/stacks, you're more likely to die if you hit a good off-tackle team and don't adjust anything else.  From depth those CB's can play the pass easily without dropping 3 steps first.  But that's what Jack has, and I respect that.  Works for him, absolutely.  Just a little nuance that I and other coaches have run into with this D and JJ's.

On grass there is are plenty of things that can go wrong if a player doesn't do their job, takes a play off, tries to do someone else's job...blah blah blah...we can't predict the future all we can do is set up the kids in schemes and with techniques we think will make them successful with the expectation they execute it.

You have three choices really in how your CB plays in zone; that is it.  He doesn't move as he reads...recipe for disaster as he will not be ready to move in any direction at all.  Move backward as he reads and determines if there is a threat of pass (pass threat focused), or move forward and read with run threat focus.  If you move forward you have no chance of defending a deep threat...it comes down to simple body mechanics at this point and for a defender to stop his momentum and run the opposite direction while attempting to over come the receiver's momentum and acceleration to top speed is nearly impossible.  I make this really clear that the CB's are the primary pass first and they are zone defenders the vast majority of the time.  Even at the very young levels, I want them reading and moving back to get a clue as to what is happening. 

Our base puts us at 8 to 10 yards but if a team has no threat of base it is auto sky and we sit at 4 to 5 yards. 
The other important thing is you have to rep read and reaction...it has to become a natural response so that often times the player doesn't even hit his third backpedal step and he is cutting on the play.  This comes over time and with well set up drills and practice.

For example, when we do half line drills we always have a play action pass or a quick pass to the perimeter in conjunction with the run plays so that our CB's don't get comfortable playing one type of play.

If we run power and power sweep we also have power pass.... If we run iso, and pitch we also have stick or dig off of play action...  When we first teach and run reps for our secondary everything they learn is off of play action, bootleg, waggle, and quick perimeter plays so that they get used to defending those plays all the time.

The other thing is when we run taps our LB's are not parked on the ass of the DL they are actually back so we create layered pressure...this is important because often times offtackle plays work due to everyone hitting the LOS at the same time and all the offense has to do is wash down the defense crack the hole open on the outside and the runner is off.  With the layered pressure the oline can't do that they have to make their blocks.

The DE play is also an important aspect of this....a good hunting angle and the ability to quickly get into the backfield and shrink the tunnel is important so that the CB's can contain and cap to support quickly.

Jack

« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 04:26:51 PM by coachgregory »
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2017, 10:12:57 AM »
You are correct Jack, it's physics and geometry.

If you're 8 yards back and then take three read steps backwards, that means you are at best 10 yards back before you read run, while the RB is now moving forward at perhaps 3 yards from the LOS.  So with your change of direction, that's maybe another step.  That means you cannot possibly have a CB in run support and hope to make the tackle for less than a 5-6 yard gain.  Not if he takes your 3 read steps backwards from 8 yards.

And that was my only point.  If you're in taps and the OL is able to block it, you have your Mike and DE and that's it for run support near the LOS.  As you know, it's not that difficult to scheme a kickout block on a DE to run inside of him.  Now it's your Mike on the ball and whoever is coming through that hole in front of the runner.

I mean, it's no different than any other defense blitzing a LB - if you don't get the ball with your blitz, you're in trouble.

One scenario, that's all I was pointing out.  Every defense has a hole somewhere, and in this case, IF you are in taps, you need to be aware of it.  No big deal...

Offline coachgregory

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 12:27:42 PM »
Not that simple really for the CB that is charging forward to the line of scrimmage when compared to a CB moving back.

First as I stated his primary job is not to give up the pass.  I care about that more from that position than run support initially.

Second when a athlete is moving forward if he had to defend a vertical pass he now has to stop,
turn his hips to the threat, and accelerate up to catch a reciever going by him. That reading CB who is over the top and simply stops his pedal and charges forward against a runner who is often not at full speed and is having to get around other players so he is often not vertical as well.

Yes the corner back will often have to make that tackle once it passes the LOS but it got stopped. The receiver gets by and catches that ball it's a TD.  I don't want to give a gimme TD.  At the younger ages we just sky call our CB's to bump them up. 

Jack
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: DE or Mike
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2017, 02:07:48 PM »
That all makes sense.

I was NOT trying to denigrate or criticize your defense, only pointing out one piece of it that coaches need to at least look at if they're going to implement.  Not to change anything, but just to understand if you do X, you need to make sure you're aware of Y.

And again Jack - I was mostly discussing someone who was playing stack with taps all the time, where the O could get a bead on it.  Chances are that with stack/taps, QB's don't have a lot of time to hit you deep, the short stuff and run is a bigger threat.