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Author Topic: the rocket/orbit sweep  (Read 5773 times)

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Offline coachnick

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the rocket/orbit sweep
« on: December 04, 2014, 07:24:17 AM »
I have always liked this play.  I think it could really be affective in the cdw.  I know coach c has said that he hasnt installed it because he doesnt want the wings to turn their shoulders on the power play and that is just what they do on motion in rocket/orbit.

however let's talk about it since we are in the off season

1. what would make you install it?

2. blocking rules? what are we doing and why?

3. coaching points on the motion and qb toss? where do we want the wing to catch the ball?

4. what is our series of plays that go with it?  dog? counter trap? rocket pass? regular wing counter? regular trap?

Offline CoachCalande

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 08:11:41 AM »
I have always liked this play.  I think it could really be affective in the cdw.  I know coach c has said that he hasnt installed it because he doesnt want the wings to turn their shoulders on the power play and that is just what they do on motion in rocket/orbit.

however let's talk about it since we are in the off season

1. what would make you install it?

2. blocking rules? what are we doing and why?

3. coaching points on the motion and qb toss? where do we want the wing to catch the ball?

4. what is our series of plays that go with it?  dog? counter trap? rocket pass? regular wing counter? regular trap?


To me, its a great simple way to get out of the phone booth but does the same thing as sprint sweep.
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Go to WWW.COACHCALANDE.COM  for Double Wing DVDs, Playbook, Drills Manuals, Practice footage and emagazines. Ask me about our new 38 special dvds!

Offline bignose

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 03:04:33 PM »
We ran this instead of the Power Sweep.
Our backs were small but extremely fast. We had trouble with the Power Sweep because of our inability to consistently block DEs, many of whom were considerably bigger and stronger than we were. If we couldn't block them, out thought was to outrun them.

Our blocking rules we pretty straight forward:
The PS Wing released and blocked the widest man (most of the time we used a Split End over formation to run this-yeah, I know, turn in my DW membership card again) and the SE would block widest man-when we had a hard nosed kid here we would often crack him inside.
The TE would reach the widest man on the LOS.
PS T and G would reach to the play side gap
Center would reach  (probably the only play we had where we didn't have him block MOMA)
It didn't matter what the backside linemen did, as they were too far away to help, mostly they reached hard to the play side gap.

We also offset the FB play side to get an extra blocker to the POA, if not offset he dove A gap away. He'd lead and look for fill coming from the secondary- on crack he's replace the SE and block widest man.

Since we ran a flatter motion on every play, the defense couldn't tell by our motion which play was coming-I'm not sure that I wouldn't do that differently if given the chance again.

The pitch was easy, just reverse pivot and aim 1 foot in front of his numbers.
The Win'g aiming point was 1 step deeper than our FB, and the pitch was pretty much timed as he passed the center and we wanted him to catch the ball somewhere around the back of the PST area.

In addition to the  supplemental plays you have listed, we packaged the FB Dive from the offset position, along with the QB keep, (fake Dive-keep behind the motion wing around the end- great play from the End Over formation-especially with a QB who could run a 4.5.

What we started seeing was teams began to change their run support angles when we went End Over, which in turn, opened Power back up. Pick your poison.
One team did a radical over shift, and we ran weak side for over 200 yards in a half on Power weak and Outside Veer/
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:30:15 PM by bignose »
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Offline Tripwire

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 05:53:46 PM »
Is this Rocket and Laser sprint your talking about?  We ran both sweep and sprints this year with great success.

Quote
1. what would make you install it?

We wanted a quick hitting outside run instead of the slower moving sweep play.

Quote
2. blocking rules? what are we doing and why?

We pulled both playside G and T and backside G.  FB faked Trap, QB booted.

Quote
3. coaching points on the motion and qb toss? where do we want the wing to catch the ball?

This wasn't a toss, it was a sprint motion from the WB spot.  Our WB's were very fast so we had them drop step slightly and sprint towards the butt of the FB.

Quote
4. what is our series of plays that go with it?  dog? counter trap? rocket pass? regular wing counter? regular trap?

Sprint, Truck and Boot is all we ran out of the sprint series.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 05:57:01 PM by Tripwire »
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Offline coachnick

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 07:08:39 PM »
tocket and lazer is the sprint sweep


when i say "rocket" in the title think wing t rocket sweep.  not our rocket motion in the cdw


orbit sweep would be    ROAR 38 ORBIT SWEEP

                                       LION 29 ORBIT SWEEP

Offline Tripwire

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 07:55:43 PM »
Gotcha. Never heard of orbit.
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Offline coachnick

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 10:16:35 PM »
yes just another name for the rocket sweep

Offline coachnick

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 10:19:13 PM »

To me, its a great simple way to get out of the phone booth but does the same thing as sprint sweep.

yes but it seems to hit faster than the sprint sweep does it not?

Offline coachnick

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 10:27:10 PM »
We ran this instead of the Power Sweep.
Our backs were small but extremely fast. We had trouble with the Power Sweep because of our inability to consistently block DEs, many of whom were considerably bigger and stronger than we were. If we couldn't block them, out thought was to outrun them.

Our blocking rules we pretty straight forward:
The PS Wing released and blocked the widest man (most of the time we used a Split End over formation to run this-yeah, I know, turn in my DW membership card again) and the SE would block widest man-when we had a hard nosed kid here we would often crack him inside.
The TE would reach the widest man on the LOS.
PS T and G would reach to the play side gap
Center would reach  (probably the only play we had where we didn't have him block MOMA)
It didn't matter what the backside linemen did, as they were too far away to help, mostly they reached hard to the play side gap.

We also offset the FB play side to get an extra blocker to the POA, if not offset he dove A gap away. He'd lead and look for fill coming from the secondary- on crack he's replace the SE and block widest man.

Since we ran a flatter motion on every play, the defense couldn't tell by our motion which play was coming-I'm not sure that I wouldn't do that differently if given the chance again.

The pitch was easy, just reverse pivot and aim 1 foot in front of his numbers.
The Win'g aiming point was 1 step deeper than our FB, and the pitch was pretty much timed as he passed the center and we wanted him to catch the ball somewhere around the back of the PST area.

In addition to the  supplemental plays you have listed, we packaged the FB Dive from the offset position, along with the QB keep, (fake Dive-keep behind the motion wing around the end- great play from the End Over formation-especially with a QB who could run a 4.5.

What we started seeing was teams began to change their run support angles when we went End Over, which in turn, opened Power back up. Pick your poison.
One team did a radical over shift, and we ran weak side for over 200 yards in a half on Power weak and Outside Veer/

ok so if we run the power and sprint sweeps already what would make you consider the orbit? you have seen our film we return our whole backfield--thoughts

Offline CoachCalande

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2014, 04:20:50 AM »
yes but it seems to hit faster than the sprint sweep does it not?

Probably--sometimes I think it also carries bigger risks
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Offline bignose

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2014, 09:40:11 AM »
Well,
we tended to be much more multi-formational than you, and this play fit in better with our concepts. We were never really able to get the Power Sweep running to our satisfaction the first year we ran the DW full time, so in 2008, we went to the Rocket Sweep.

Your blocking at the wing area was much better than ours, we needed to get out of the box fast. We had a bunch of 4.7-4.8 kids who were not great blockers- a 135 lb. Wing isn't going to consistently block a 220 lb. DE no matter how good his technique is.

Our Rocket Sweep was our #2 called play.
We averaged about 8 yards per carry on Power, and about 6 ypc on the Sweep.
Most everything else was about 4 ypc, with some exceptions, i.e. Wrap Around Draw was always a big play ( in 1999, from the Bone, we averaged 50 ypc on this play!), but it was only good once or twice per game.

Also you are running a lot more Power Sweep than we ever did. When we originally installed this, it was as a complimentary play to Power.
We did everything we could to keep our Power a viable play, whereas you and Steve run Power Sweep, Dog, and Trap so much more this year. We'd change the formation, instead.
We ran Power as approximately 45-50% of our called plays and it accounted for about 75% of our yardage, and as you are aware, we almost never ran a trap.

And our motion was different than yours. We abandoned the reverse crossover first step after we had a wing fall on his ass on a wet field and the QB pitched the ball to air. Our wings all drop stepped off of the outside foot on all of our plays, so the defense didn't really see a difference. I like how you and Steve have the Wing keep square to the LOS on Power. I'd probably teach a deep squared up shuffle for two steps, and then have him turn and sprint for the Sweep.

We tended to be much more Wingback oriented than you are, our wingbacks carried the ball about 80% of the time, you and Steve are far more balanced than we ever were.
This was partially a hold over from our Power Bone days, where the FB was thought of as a "third guard". Our FB was always a blocker first, and a runner second.

BTW, if I ever have the chance to coach the DW again, that is one thing I would change.
Our FB plays were Dives, Bellies, and Dog.
But it obviously worked for us.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 09:47:25 AM by bignose »
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Offline coacho

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2014, 12:24:58 PM »
The OC likes the Rocket so we installed the play. Up front we had Jet blocking and a back who had difficulty running Jet but would fly running Rocket. In our last game we ran a dive play using Rocket motion. The LB'er to that side reacted to the motion and ran past the dive back carrying the ball for a TD.

Offline coachnick

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2014, 02:08:10 PM »
Well,
we tended to be much more multi-formational than you, and this play fit in better with our concepts. We were never really able to get the Power Sweep running to our satisfaction the first year we ran the DW full time, so in 2008, we went to the Rocket Sweep.

Your blocking at the wing area was much better than ours, we needed to get out of the box fast. We had a bunch of 4.7-4.8 kids who were not great blockers- a 135 lb. Wing isn't going to consistently block a 220 lb. DE no matter how good his technique is.

Our Rocket Sweep was our #2 called play.
We averaged about 8 yards per carry on Power, and about 6 ypc on the Sweep.
Most everything else was about 4 ypc, with some exceptions, i.e. Wrap Around Draw was always a big play ( in 1999, from the Bone, we averaged 50 ypc on this play!), but it was only good once or twice per game.

Also you are running a lot more Power Sweep than we ever did. When we originally installed this, it was as a complimentary play to Power.
We did everything we could to keep our Power a viable play, whereas you and Steve run Power Sweep, Dog, and Trap so much more this year. We'd change the formation, instead.
We ran Power as approximately 45-50% of our called plays and it accounted for about 75% of our yardage, and as you are aware, we almost never ran a trap.

And our motion was different than yours. We abandoned the reverse crossover first step after we had a wing fall on his ass on a wet field and the QB pitched the ball to air. Our wings all drop stepped off of the outside foot on all of our plays, so the defense didn't really see a difference. I like how you and Steve have the Wing keep square to the LOS on Power. I'd probably teach a deep squared up shuffle for two steps, and then have him turn and sprint for the Sweep.

We tended to be much more Wingback oriented than you are, our wingbacks carried the ball about 80% of the time, you and Steve are far more balanced than we ever were.
This was partially a hold over from our Power Bone days, where the FB was thought of as a "third guard". Our FB was always a blocker first, and a runner second.

BTW, if I ever have the chance to coach the DW again, that is one thing I would change.
Our FB plays were Dives, Bellies, and Dog.
But it obviously worked for us.

WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE? more traps?

Offline coachnick

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2014, 02:11:08 PM »
We ran this instead of the Power Sweep.
Our backs were small but extremely fast. We had trouble with the Power Sweep because of our inability to consistently block DEs, many of whom were considerably bigger and stronger than we were. If we couldn't block them, out thought was to outrun them.

Our blocking rules we pretty straight forward:
The PS Wing released and blocked the widest man (most of the time we used a Split End over formation to run this-yeah, I know, turn in my DW membership card again) and the SE would block widest man-when we had a hard nosed kid here we would often crack him inside.
The TE would reach the widest man on the LOS.
PS T and G would reach to the play side gap
Center would reach  (probably the only play we had where we didn't have him block MOMA)
It didn't matter what the backside linemen did, as they were too far away to help, mostly they reached hard to the play side gap.

We also offset the FB play side to get an extra blocker to the POA, if not offset he dove A gap away. He'd lead and look for fill coming from the secondary- on crack he's replace the SE and block widest man.

Since we ran a flatter motion on every play, the defense couldn't tell by our motion which play was coming-I'm not sure that I wouldn't do that differently if given the chance again.

The pitch was easy, just reverse pivot and aim 1 foot in front of his numbers.
The Win'g aiming point was 1 step deeper than our FB, and the pitch was pretty much timed as he passed the center and we wanted him to catch the ball somewhere around the back of the PST area.

In addition to the  supplemental plays you have listed, we packaged the FB Dive from the offset position, along with the QB keep, (fake Dive-keep behind the motion wing around the end- great play from the End Over formation-especially with a QB who could run a 4.5.

What we started seeing was teams began to change their run support angles when we went End Over, which in turn, opened Power back up. Pick your poison.
One team did a radical over shift, and we ran weak side for over 200 yards in a half on Power weak and Outside Veer/

yes power sweep changed my whole mindset and really changed our season and thus has changed my career.  after the first game and half many coaches were saying" hahahaha obnoxious nick and his dw aint doing so hot!!!"   

different tune after the second half of the 2nd game when power sweep started popping---it also led to our big upset over city!!!

Offline bignose

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Re: the rocket/orbit sweep
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2014, 03:03:43 PM »
Trap,
yeah, I'd run the freaking trap, but I'd be more balanced in the ball carrying responsibilities to keep the defense honest. Make them defend all 4 potential runners.
I also like running the QB too, my option background…….

I had the pleasure of watching Catoctin H.S. run their version of the DW (Wyatt based) to win the 2009 Maryland  1 A Championship in 2009.
Their version was much more FB oriented, plus they had a 2 x 2 Spread series that they integrated into their overall offensive package.
Possibly some Murphy Gun DW.
It all works.

The problem is reducing it to a small enough but complete package with enough tools, but not with a tool box so heavy we can't lift it.
That will depend yearly on the kids and their experience level.
You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!