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Author Topic: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL  (Read 6407 times)

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Offline JB

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2012, 10:23:49 AM »
For use with UBSW, it is possible to use GOL but, in studying UBSW playbooks I could see that, when UBSW was at it's peak in 1939, teams were using a version of G-D-B (Which I added to with "Over here, over there.").  GDB is my playside blocking.  Only about 20% of the old plays used GOD.  So I'm reverting, as JB noted, to running SW "the way it was intended to be done."

In GDB, they were trying to create IMPACT (Mass times velocity squared) with an ANGLE (A hit from the side is worth far more than a hit from the front. ). It was all physics with the line play and angles produced better physics than ON.

As Doc Ward likes to say about SAB, "It will eventually be outlawed 'cause it ain't fair!"

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SAB/TKO were created as variants of GDB.  SAB used a steep 30 degree angle to insure that even the SLOWEST blocker didn't miss a DOWN block.

We started using 15 degrees on power. Although we don't tell that to kids, we work on that angle, ALOT. Loads of o-line drills conducted at that angle. 30 degrees ends up in real life with the head often behind the DLMN. We teach shoulder blocking and want our head in front of DLMN on a down block.


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You aimed at pretty much the helmet of your own next blocker inside you and just kept going until you hit someone.  If the defender across from the next blocker inside of you came forward, you hit him even if you were SLOW AS MUD.  That's because SAB caused you to aim AHEAD OF HIM.  You had an INTERCEPT ANGLE PLOTTED.

And if your OLMN stay low. If you get a lazy one, a "Pop Tart" lineman, then his ability to move a DLMN is more difficult. We want the angle and to stay low. I like BIG bowling ball types in SW. Do not like traditional NFL LT types.



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TKO came out of SAB and my "Tennis Ball Drill".  It was realized by Jack Gregory that my Tennis Ball Drill speeded up even the slowest offensive lineman to where we didn't have to block 30 degrees.  We could block down directly from zero splits.

What's more important to me is the vertical split, i.e., the distance recessed from O-Line. The vertical split really helps in SW. Just like you use "mini" and "maxi" in DCWT, you can align your line up or back given the play being called. In a Seam Buck, a quick hitter, we want them up. On a Power, I want them back.  That's beyond this age level, but I raise b/c I like shooting the breeze with you, lol.

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SAB also had the disadvantage that players running at 30 degrees could run right by defenders not on their 30 degree track.  As an example, if the defense aligned two defenders in a 30 degree angle to each other (such as my DC46), only one of those two defenders would be blocked.

I'll go back to Doc Ward here. Here's how he teaches SAB. He calls it his "Red Zone". The Red Zone  goes from the OLMN's Nose to adjacent down OLMN's nose. If ANY PART of a defender, even his FINGER NAIL, enters that red zone, he blocks him. (Doc uses a more colorful description, lol).

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TKO was designed to counter the problem DC46 posed to SAB when the creator of SAB, John Carbon, found it would not work against DC46 (It's not a coincidence that the three creators of TKO; Jack Gregory, JJ Lawsen, and Darren Fish, were all DC46 coaches.).

At the HS level, that 7 tech ("Sam") is what would give us fits. However, we would have adjustments for him. We can debate this over in the DC46 forum some time, if you like. Trust me, it would be interesting and a game of chess.

BTW, the down blocking HELPS alot as the kids get older and you're able to employ a) trapping, b) down and log, or c) down and kick  schemes. The down blocking tends to lull the defense into a "blissful sleepy somber attack mode", that allows them to get easily trapped or logged on a later play. (Getting into play sequencing here... ;))

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In TKO, as you ran your track route (now more than 30 degrees) you stayed shoulder to shoulder with the blocker inside of you.  If they stopped, you stopped.  No one "kept going".  The idea was to create a "swinging door" of blockers in a solid wall with the DW center as the door hinge.  Here's TKO blocking for a run right from DW:

                    O
                  O
                O
      OOOO

You know...we used something similar at MS level on sweeps. We would use same scheme, but, blocking out towards sidelines. It was almost...dare I say it..."Zone" like, we had a couple of kids that were outstanding TBs, and this was a dynamite scheme for us from the BLSW offense that we were running.

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The player in bold is the center.  The concept of TKO is not new.  When I got the idea for it, I called it "Hinge" blocking because the center was the hinge of the door.  Others called it "Wall" blocking.  But the idea is always the same.  To make the tackle, the defense must go over the top of the RTE above because they can't get through the wall of bodies underneath.  And, if the defense went over the top of the RTE to make the tackle, you always gained 4 yards. 

If you want, "Over here.  Over there," will work just the opposite.  The goal doesn't have to be for the defense to go over the top of the RTE.  It can be to get the defense to go UNDER.  As a blocker, point your inside arm inside to see who you have.  You will either see a lineman or a LB. If the blocking is "Over here", hit him on his OUTSIDE SHOULDER (Have a look inside his earhole if a DL).  If the blocking is "Over there" and you have an LB, then PULL.

I should draw this up...in UBSW, I like the scooping of the backside OLMN. If I am pulling, from backside of center (guy w/ ball, not center of line), then I want the pulling OLMN to execute a "short pull". He would provide cover for any playside leakage. But, I really would want the backside QE or QG to scoop to 2nd level. One should pick up the backside 1 or 3 tech and the other releases.

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The PULL on "Over there" is very important.  Because, if an LB beats our man, we want him to redirect the LB UNDER him and not "Over the top of him".  IOW, he's to pass under the RTE above and not over the top of him where he can now run into our BS puller sealing any "leaks".

Again...this is for 7s and 8s...at that level yes. But, you can make adjustments and have a "blocking WB" who handles that SAM on Power. We always have a blocking WB and a running WB (going back to my days running 25 power in Wing T). The strong TE or strong T, depending on defensive alignment has that nasty Mike in Power.

For lurkers, my take on SW O-line...for whatever its worth...

Your TE on strong side should be a STUD, same with that strong tackle, since we run Power...ALOT.

ST must be a grade A stud. Period.

The inside tackle, IT,  can be a Taco Bell Timmy  :(. (Hint: Save those McDonalds coupons that come in the mail for him and his fat mom, reward him (and mom) after game for actually moving his lard a$$ to fill for vacating pulling guard...  :P)

The SG, if pulling him, is your athletic OLMN.

Center is a tough, smart a$$ kid, probably somewhat annoying, and built like a block.

QG should be bigger/slower type (but more of an athlete than Taco Bell Timmy), and...

QE can be, well, the guy who's a skinny glory hound without much ability...

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"Over here" creates a target and blocks the OUTSIDE HALF OF HIM.  We only block "half an LB" because we know the ANGLE only happens on DL's and really STUPID LB's. 

This, my friends is PURE GOLD.

Teach your kids the concept of blocking "half a man".

I'll go a bit further, in downfield blocking, my rules are:

1) block with should if defender approaching hard (always use your inside shoulder w/ my head NOW PLAYSIDE/OUTSIDE of downfield man)
2) use hands if defender is approaching soft (again, block half the man, get on the defender's outside shoulder)

Now....look...this does not always play out like this, and, this is the ideal...but, what the OLMN can always control, is their ability to HUSTLE. Geez, we want/demand our OLMN to hustle!

Good downfield blocks lead to TDs...

So, our OLMN must be drilled to get downfield QUICKLY!!!

And...MOST IMPORTANTLY. Reward 'em, make a HUGE FRIGGIN DEAL out of it when they do it in a game, let every friggin' parent know that little Jimmy just hustled his @$$ downfield and made that play. Make sure its loud and they all know!  :D





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But, if your defense can slow them down to 7 minutes to score (or not score at all) and you can speed yours up to 5 minutes to score, YOU WIN THE GAME.  They will ALWAYS run out of time.  This is why Oklahoma and Alabama no longer run wishbone.  They needed clock time to score.  No time= No score.  In a close game, the odds were they'd lose.

In theory, this may be the case.

But if you have comparable talent to opponent and focus on power, you will get big plays from it. Especially at younger ages. That has been my experience. If we have a good team, we will get those big TDs (60+) from power. When we're a less talented team, we may not.

Its my belief, based on experience on the field, that a good measure of how talented you are to the opponent is how often you can get those big runs from power.

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To speed your scoring time up, turn their LBer's UNDER your blockers.  As soon as your runner goes 4 yards, he goes 60.  That's because, with the LB's passing under their blockers, they're all BEHIND YOUR RUNNER.  They have to catch him from behind to score.

Yes! This, is why we seek angles.

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The LB's will NEVER turn UNDER your blockers if you block TKO.  They'll always go OVER and limit the gain. 

Don't know, never used "TKO".


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This brings us back to 1939 and my DC UBSW.  In 1939, the TE's played one yard splits.  Why?

Because IMPACT=Mass times velocity squared.  Our TE's may be small but they're FAST.  We give them one yard splits to let them use their SPEED to cover the distance to their man.  This allows them to generate more IMPACT than even your biggest lineman.  So the old UBSW had method to it's maddness and I USE IT.

DC is giving some more gold here...

But, this TE should be a good player, at least he is at our level. I know at 7-8, with limited roster size, etc. Its a bit different. But, I still want a strong athlete here--my preference.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 10:43:59 AM by JB »
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2012, 11:28:36 AM »
Thanks JB.  I'll put a note in the manual about that strong side TE.  I'm curious why you want to get a head across the front of a DLMM on a down block?
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Offline JB

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2012, 03:03:50 PM »
Thanks JB.  I'll put a note in the manual about that strong side TE.  I'm curious why you want to get a head across the front of a DLMM on a down block?

Learned this from Herman in Wing T and all of the "old school" (and I mean the real ones...old guys) from Single Wing.

We are shoulder blocking. So, in power...my first step strong side as an OLMN is on that hard angle, I make it 15 degrees, "f" the 30, that turns into a 45 degree step real quick, plus, I am RECESSED and want to meet the defender as he's moving forward (he "ain't" gonna sit there and wait for me to show up...lol). Second step I am bringing punch and "shoulder block", note that I am delivering blow (let's not get into this debate  ;)) with right shoulder (if from strong right). I want to squeeze shoulder/nap of neck/forearm into hip area of the DLMN, squeezing my neck into defender, in front of him. I am driving him down and cutting off penetration (my main concern). If I go behind, I use a left shoulder and am allowing penetration.

A couple of quotes (not used by me better explain this):

Some HS level coaches tell their lineman:

1) "Never get penetrated!" uhhh...get it? Couple of meanings there...a bright DLMN might respond..."Hell no Coach...he ain't penetrating me!!!" lol

2) This I was told by a very well known older midwestern SW coach with multiple state titles...
"Squeeze the hip and bite the d!ck"...

OK...now...I never use those...especially in current culture...but they kinda' get the point across...

Herman teaches same, without expressions, with the Wing T. BTW, he has some new DVDs out which I hope to get a hold of...I LOVE watching how he coaches...fantastic teacher of the game.

BTW...a REALLY important point for Taco Bell Timmy at IT. His blocking angle when the SG is pulling is straight down. It is lateral, zero degrees. We cannot, must not, will not, miss that "0" tech Nick playing over the SG. Capiche?

« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 03:10:15 PM by JB »
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2012, 07:10:53 PM »
Learned this from Herman in Wing T and all of the "old school" (and I mean the real ones...old guys) from Single Wing.

We are shoulder blocking. So, in power...my first step strong side as an OLMN is on that hard angle, I make it 15 degrees, "f" the 30, that turns into a 45 degree step real quick, plus, I am RECESSED and want to meet the defender as he's moving forward (he "ain't" gonna sit there and wait for me to show up...lol). Second step I am bringing punch and "shoulder block", note that I am delivering blow (let's not get into this debate  ;)) with right shoulder (if from strong right). I want to squeeze shoulder/nap of neck/forearm into hip area of the DLMN, squeezing my neck into defender, in front of him. I am driving him down and cutting off penetration (my main concern). If I go behind, I use a left shoulder and am allowing penetration.
Why is penetration your main concern?  Just a bit upthread, weren't you singing the praise of blocking half a man, making the opponent go under and chasing the play from behind?

I'll admit that if the defender is going forward anyway, might as well get in his way.  But what if he's trying to go over the top to clog the hole?  Which I would think he would try to do frequently once you established that hole as your major threat!

Offline JB

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2012, 08:41:58 PM »
Why is penetration your main concern?  Just a bit upthread, weren't you singing the praise of blocking half a man, making the opponent go under and chasing the play from behind?

I was praising the concept of "blocking of 1/2 the man". It is something that most folks don't teach.


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I'll admit that if the defender is going forward anyway, might as well get in his way.  But what if he's trying to go over the top to clog the hole?  Which I would think he would try to do frequently once you established that hole as your major threat!

This is the accepted norm, Bob.

If he goes over the top, we're definitely moving the ball, Bob. C'mon, a DLMN that is aligned down from my OLMN is now moving in lateral direction over the top? I suppose, technically if flexed, but adjacent OLMN would likely have him. LAOS, My TB is getting upfield NOW. And my line is still blocking down. Our TBs are not false stepping...they're moving NOW!

We're not even talking about what other plays could now be run easily if we saw this type of reaction.

No offense Bob...but I have been coaching this at HS in large metro area...if we saw that...we'd kick @$$ as the defenders would not be attacking...there are other ways to challenge the SW power that are far more effective. This is based on real life, on-the-grass, experience with large human bodies.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 08:56:15 PM by JB »
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 12:01:56 AM »
I was praising the concept of "blocking of 1/2 the man". It is something that most folks don't teach.

This is the accepted norm, Bob.

If he goes over the top, we're definitely moving the ball, Bob. C'mon, a DLMN that is aligned down from my OLMN is now moving in lateral direction over the top? I suppose, technically if flexed, but adjacent OLMN would likely have him. LAOS, My TB is getting upfield NOW. And my line is still blocking down. Our TBs are not false stepping...they're moving NOW!

We're not even talking about what other plays could now be run easily if we saw this type of reaction.

No offense Bob...but I have been coaching this at HS in large metro area...if we saw that...we'd kick @$$ as the defenders would not be attacking...there are other ways to challenge the SW power that are far more effective. This is based on real life, on-the-grass, experience with large human bodies.
Are you familiar with "Block down, step down" as a defensive slogan?  As a way to prevent being kicked out, DL have been adopting the tactic that when they see or feel the OL in front of them blocking down, they themselves step in the same direction, to minimize the exposure of their inside shoulder to being kicked out, and in the belief this will place them squarely where the hole is supposed to be.

I don't see why a DL on the other side of that POA wouldn't similarly adopt a tactic of trying to slide out to the outside of an OL trying to block them down.

If not, what do you coach that defender to do?

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2012, 01:27:25 PM »
Are you familiar with "Block down, step down" as a defensive slogan?  As a way to prevent being kicked out, DL have been adopting the tactic that when they see or feel the OL in front of them blocking down, they themselves step in the same direction, to minimize the exposure of their inside shoulder to being kicked out, and in the belief this will place them squarely where the hole is supposed to be.

I don't see why a DL on the other side of that POA wouldn't similarly adopt a tactic of trying to slide out to the outside of an OL trying to block them down.

If not, what do you coach that defender to do?

I think that, about the time a DL sees a down block developing, it's too late and it's already happening.  However, this is why I asked JB about why he had his OL get their helmets across the FRONT of the defender on the down.

However, he's right about an OT blocking down laterally at zero degrees.  This is done all the time with Delaware "G" blocking schemes using two foot splits.
 
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2012, 01:54:26 PM »
I think that, about the time a DL sees a down block developing, it's too late and it's already happening.  However, this is why I asked JB about why he had his OL get their helmets across the FRONT of the defender on the down.

However, he's right about an OT blocking down laterally at zero degrees.  This is done all the time with Delaware "G" blocking schemes using two foot splits.
I would too if I were having the adjacent guard pull behind me (with 2' splits) and had to protect a QB handing off after turning his back!  But I think it's overly conservative in most forms of single wing attack.  For angle blocking adjacent to the hole, I'd been coaching head behind the opponent, but next time I think I'll go for your advice to aim the chin at the earhole.  I'm afraid the way I'd been teaching it might result in some wiffs on one hand and illegal use of the hands (getting an arm bar across in front) on the other.

Getting across in front I coach only for antipenetration blocking farther from the POA.

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2012, 10:35:48 PM »
For angle blocking adjacent to the hole, I'd been coaching head behind the opponent, but next time I think I'll go for your advice to aim the chin at the earhole. 

According to physics, this is the way to go.  In 1939, they were still blocking UBSW using physics.  However, what's calculated on the chalkboard and what's calculated on the field can be two different things.  The red flag for this was, about then, the UBSW was only averaging about 3 yards per carry and 4 yards per pass.  It was this dismal output that accounted for the "0" of the 70-0 beating the NFL's best SW team took when it met the NFL's first "T" team.

It was this crappola scoring output that caused me to begin my research with the "T" and skip the SW altogether.  After all, if the "T" (the grandfather of modern football) wasn't better than the SW, why did the SW go extinct?

But, actually, the SW is a thing of coaching beauty in terms of its simplicity.  With coaches like JB and Cisar winning with it, it was time for me to rethink.  I liked Cisar's formation but, to me, his blocking rules had no basis in physics at all.  My thinking is much more like JB's when I came up with "Over here.  Over there." 

I did not opt for "head across the front" on the down because I had the "Over there" blocker pulling to screen off any penetration.  Further, the inside hand of the "Over here" blocker is aimed for the defender's chest (or lower) to reduce pentration.  So I felt I had peneration covered as well as your concern that the defender try to "flow" down the LOS versus a down block across his face.

Everyone should keep in mind that JB is being kind.  He's a former youth coach (DCWT) now an HS coach and that HS experience has left the rest of us all behind.  So when he makes a suggestion, it would be stupid for me not to listen.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 02:31:24 PM by DumCoach »
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Offline JB

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2012, 01:01:30 PM »
Are you familiar with "Block down, step down" as a defensive slogan?  As a way to prevent being kicked out, DL have been adopting the tactic that when they see or feel the OL in front of them blocking down, they themselves step in the same direction, to minimize the exposure of their inside shoulder to being kicked out, and in the belief this will place them squarely where the hole is supposed to be.

Yes, we see it all of the time--we call it squeezing (when OT or TE come to sideline, we might hear "he's squeezing down Coach" when referring to a particular DLMN). That is usally accompanied by DLMN **HOLDING** near OLMN or follwoing just behind and stepping into gap. He's still getting down blocked. WB would have the DLMN on or on outside shoulder of SE. [Hence reason for blocking WB...BTW]. We can also use formations, etc. But digressing...

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I don't see why a DL on the other side of that POA wouldn't similarly adopt a tactic of trying to slide out to the outside of an OL trying to block them down.

Tough to do. DC can speak more intelligently to this than me. But, the only way that I see this working is to have the DLMN flexed from D-Line. If he's stepping backwards or laterally, wow, that's easy pickens on the block by OLMN.

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If not, what do you coach that defender to do?

Do you want me to  tell you what smart DCs do to us to be effective? Different question. They do not do that. You were closer to mark by stumbling on a "squeezing 7 tech"...same with a weakside "3 tech"...who both are HUGE.
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Offline JB

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2012, 01:19:12 PM »
I think that, about the time a DL sees a down block developing, it's too late and it's already happening.  However, this is why I asked JB about why he had his OL get their helmets across the FRONT of the defender on the down.

However, he's right about an OT blocking down laterally at zero degrees.  This is done all the time with Delaware "G" blocking schemes using two foot splits.
 

Here’s primary reasons why we block with head in front on power.

We are down blocking, whether its SAB or GDB, we have the IT (on a zero degree angle, if needed), the OT, TE, and WB blocking down.

Our priority rule is to NOT allow penetration. We do not want the defense to penetrate, period. So, at LOS, we’re using right shoulder. We **should** be getting a big down blocking push, causing a pileup, so we’re  not worried about DLMN coming over the top. That has never been an issue. LBer is a different story.

BTW, if that OT or TE now has a LBer read. He can use his inside (left) shoulder on block “downfield”. Or, he can use hands, it is up to the OLMN to decide on the fly, blocking ½ the man to playside, and fighting to overtake defender to that playside.

Now for a very practical reason. Most OLMN are right handed, I want a shoulder block using his right arm. Much, much more power. I cannot use a right shoulder block and have my head behind the DLMN. Won’t work. (NOTE FOR SHOULDER BLOCKING LURKERS: This is also why…if using shoulder blocking and have limited “Indy” time, that you should look for left handers at QG and QE and “righties” on strong side in the UBSW (jmho). ) So, if I am running power as my base play, which is quite likely in the SW, then I better be able to move the defenders. A down block from right shoulder ensures max power.

If I were to use a left shoulder on power, then its much easier to give up penetration (my main concern).

For Bob’s “rolling over the top” scenario. We can employ a down-to-crab or down-to-basketball-block-out block if defender spins or rolls over playside from down blocking OLMN. However, due to all of the OLMN blocking down (its a mass of humanity), we’re more likely to get a double team or DLMN gets caught up in the wash if this happens. However, we drill the down to crab and down to basketball bock out all the time in Indies. This I learned from Wing T.

Also, for lurkers, if using DCUBSW with 7-8s, I’d probably go with hands. However, I would DEFINITELY use shoulders by the time kids get to Middle School. They can handle it, and once they get the “feeling of it”, they will get good at it and stick with it. Trust me…they will use shoulders over hands once they have been drilled in both.  This is based on my experience…
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Offline JB

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2012, 01:31:13 PM »
I would too if I were having the adjacent guard pull behind me (with 2' splits) and had to protect a QB handing off after turning his back!  But I think it's overly conservative in most forms of single wing attack.
 

Not if you are pulling that QG! You MUST fill for the vacated guard. For example, if there is a "0" tech playing on top of the QG, you better go zero degrees TO ENSURE YOU'RE SAFE or you are gonna' watch Nick in the backfield all night. Mike too. Just rename your quick guard to "turnstile". Good luck.   ::)

Most importantly, there is now way that Taco Bell Timmy at IT can go 30 degrees and catch up on that block. No friggin' way Bob. I've tried it.  ???




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For angle blocking adjacent to the hole, I'd been coaching head behind the opponent, but next time I think I'll go for your advice to aim the chin at the earhole.

Bob...NOT if you are shoulder blocking. Way too high and where is your shoulder surface going?!? Not sure what you'd be doing there...

Now, if using hands...then, ok. Still too high imo.

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I'm afraid the way I'd been teaching it might result in some wiffs on one hand and illegal use of the hands (getting an arm bar across in front) on the other.

Go get Herman's tapes.

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Getting across in front I coach only for antipenetration blocking farther from the POA.

For backside on Power, we are scooping Bob, we want either the QE or QG to cutoff the 1 or 3 tech and the other releases to a LBer (Will) and, if cannot get in his way, he goes for Fred. We only want to slow down the backside man. The QG will help the center if he needs it. We don't worry about backside 5 tech (DE). If a 1 and 5, QG has 1 and QE gets down field (he gives DE a shove if playing tight); if a 3 and 5, QG looks to help C if he needs help, and then goes Will to Fred; if a 1, 3, and 5, QG has 1 and QE has 3, and we let 5 go. You've got the Phd, so you can figure out the rest... ;)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:45:44 PM by JB »
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Offline JB

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2012, 02:17:13 PM »
According to physics, this is the way to go.  In 1939, they were still blocking UBSW using physics.  However, what's calculated on the chalkboard and what's calculated on the field can be two different things.  The red flag for this was, about then, the UBSW was only averaging about 3 yards per carry and 4 yards per pass.  It was this dismal output that accoiunted for the "0" of the 70-0 beating the NFL's best SW team took when it met the NFK's first "T" team.

It was this crappola scoring output that caused me to begin my research with the "T" and skip the SW altogether.  After all, if the "T" (the grandfather of modern football) wasn't better than the SW, why did the SW go extinct?

But, actually, the SW is a thing of coaching beauty in terms of its simplicity.  With coaches like JB and Cisar winning with it, it was time for me to rethink.  I liked Cisar's formation but, to me, his blocking rules had no basis in physics at all.  My thinking is much more like JB's when I came up with "Over here.  Over there." 

I did not opt for "head across the front" on the down because I had the "Over there" blocker pulling to screen off any penetration.  Further, the inside hand of the "Over here" blocker is aimed for the defender's chest (or lower) to reduce pentration.  So I felt I had peneration covered as well as your concern that the defender try to "flow" down the LOS versus a down block across his face.

Everyone should keep in mind that JB is being kind.  He's a former youth coach (DCWT) now an HS coach and that HS experience has left the rest of us all behind.  So when he makes a suggestion, it would be stupid for me not to listen.

Thanks for the nice comments DC.

You know…after having coached Wing T and SW…I have my own thoughts about when I’d employ each, by age.

6th grade and under: I’d go with DCWT or actually a modification of DCWT with Delaware (but, that’s just me). More DCWT w/ younger kids.

MS: Balanced line SW

HS: UBSW

Now...I love the fact that you've created the DCUBSW...its a sweet offense and I encourage folks to employ...but that DCWT is so easy...

I like the misdirection of DCWT at younger ages. The logic of “kitten chasing string”. It’s a super easy coach/teach and you get many kids involved. Loads of parental “input” at this age…so, more kids touch the ball and fewer headaches. Plus, its looks like the NFL.

Now, I must say that, but I’ve seen some really impressive teams running SW at younger ages. Amazes me what these guys can do. There’s a fella’ in WV that runs full spin and other stuff with little guys and THEY  ARE FRIGGIN’ GOOD. I am always amazed with his teams.

In Middle School, I love a super simple balanced line SW. I’ll block it using G-O-D, just like the DWers, and pull G&T. We’ll flip formation too.  We’ll focus on core plays of power, sweep, seam buck, WB counter, and wedge. Sweep pass is nice here as well. We’ll mix in a little bit of spin as a second series and for misdirection. I will run wedge from this formation and age until cows come home. Wedge from BLSW is SOOOO much better it is not comparable. 

I begged, pleaded, and cajoled of HC to allow us to run wedge from wedge from BLSW this past year. We were UBSW. And yes, we typically have 3 to 4 scouting crews at each game. Most teams have 4-5 games of footage on us. But, even with this, in a tight game, players go stupid. We had two huge TDs from BLSW this year—could have had more but HC would not let us run it. Nuts. The wedge is far more effective (we wedge on the center) and BB is better hidden.  In HS, with a full spin action behind, and a BLSW wedge, ooohhh baby.

I like the UBSW at HS b/c of ability to utilize full spin, ½ spin or T series. Plus, it is better, imo, for power at this age. I also want to utilize a bunch of formations at this age, and UBSW, is much like DCWT in this regard. Also, it will help with passing game—much more important at this age. Indeed, by formationing, I’ll get into a balanced look pretty quickly.

Formationing is really what makes the SW go IMO. Some guys like to stick in one formation, come hell or high water. Not me, I want to utilize formations to give me, as Doc Ward calls it, leverage. Same concept as with the DCWT.  Plus, my passing game will suck sitting in that one formation.


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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 03:07:18 PM »
Now for a very practical reason. Most OLMN are right handed, I want a shoulder block using his right arm. Much, much more power. I cannot use a right shoulder block and have my head behind the DLMN. Won’t work. (NOTE FOR SHOULDER BLOCKING LURKERS: This is also why…if using shoulder blocking and have limited “Indy” time, that you should look for left handers at QG and QE and “righties” on strong side in the UBSW (jmho). ) So, if I am running power as my base play, which is quite likely in the SW, then I better be able to move the defenders. A down block from right shoulder ensures max power.

If I were to use a left shoulder on power, then its much easier to give up penetration (my main concern).

That's about the simplest, most obvious explanation for anything in football I've ever read.  It goes in the manual RIGHT NOW.   8)
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 10:38:56 PM »
Not if you are pulling that QG! You MUST fill for the vacated guard. For example, if there is a "0" tech playing on top of the QG, you better go zero degrees TO ENSURE YOU'RE SAFE or you are gonna' watch Nick in the backfield all night. Mike too. Just rename your quick guard to "turnstile". Good luck.   ::)
I didn't mean on the back side, I meant the play side.  That's where the discussion was up to this point, but you seem to have switched to back side.  Sure, on the side away from the play, if that guard is being pulled, there I have an antipenetration block -- scoop, crab, or shoeshine as necessary.  There's no need to get a push there, and I don't care about anything but penetration.

I just think that on the play side on a single wing off tackle play, an antipenetration block is too conservative.  If the play is timed right, a defender penetrating the 2nd position away from the hole will wind up behind the runner.

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For angle blocking adjacent to the hole, I'd been coaching head behind the opponent, but next time I think I'll go for your advice to aim the chin at the earhole.
Bob...NOT if you are shoulder blocking. Way too high and where is your shoulder surface going?!?
If I'm aiming my chin at the defender's ear hole, I'm getting my outside shoulder in his armpit.  Before I read DC's, I had the inside shoulder there, and the inside arm across his front, but that might look too close to tackling him.
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For backside on Power, we are scooping Bob,
Then we're doing the same thing.