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wilrun2
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[*] posted on 8-14-2009 at 05:20 PM Reply With Quote
pushing too hard



I have two kids playing ball and I coach defense on my younger kid's team (7-8) Three days a week I make them do about 30 minutes of strength work in addition to practice. When they whine, I push them to finish. This is all in my living room with a medicine ball and 2 ten lb. kettlebells. My lovely wife believes this is too much; that I am pushing them away from enjoying the game; that they are doing this only for me. I feel like the strength work is minimal; it isolates muscles used in the game; makes them less susceptible to injury and pays dividends on the field. I played college ball thanks to youth, middle and high school coaches who pushed the heck out of me. There are IMO enough "hand holders" out there.

Just wanted some of you all to weigh in on this subject.
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elarse
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[*] posted on 8-14-2009 at 05:54 PM Reply With Quote


7 & 8 year olds!...no brainer, you are pushing too much. This is simple psychology, it is called negative reinforcement, at this age their body chemistry won't give you much ROI in terms of strength building, and all you are doing is making them associate you and the sport with negative feelings.

At this age the game should be fun. If they grow to love the game and you, when they are older they will want to sacrifice and work hard to be the best they can be. But if you teach them to hate game by associating it with negative feelings, all you efforts will be wasted and all you you'll be left with kids that resent you and the game.

Sorry to come down so hard on you, but you should lighten up on them. Use positive reinforcement to make the game fun!
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[*] posted on 8-14-2009 at 07:53 PM Reply With Quote


Their bodies aren't physically ready for "Strength", let em hit puberty first.

As Elarse said its supposed to be a fun, learning experience. Teach them how to use the muscles they already have Butt & Legs. Show them leverage vs height and angles vs a bigger kid. You played ball because of your motor, your drive. I had coaches I hated but I played anyway. A good coach promotes the fun the game at first all the time re-enforcing that nothing comes without hard work. Hard work at 7 & 8 is doing 5 plays perfect before they go home.




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[*] posted on 8-14-2009 at 08:07 PM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by wilrun2

Just wanted some of you all to weigh in on this subject.
Based on the information you've provided, I think you're pushing too much, too soon.

--Dave
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[*] posted on 8-14-2009 at 09:41 PM Reply With Quote
hard



We have a coah in our sister team. Yelling and screaming everyday. Superbow, superbowl. Now they are good but I think his intensity is so high that he is gonna burn them out and he is making it not that fun for the little guys. JMO.



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[*] posted on 8-14-2009 at 11:17 PM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Just wanted some of you all to weigh in on this subject.


we incorporate a little strength work into our practice. your method appears a bit excessive, but to each his own.

signed,
Coach "hand holder"
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Jem
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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 12:10 AM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by wilrun2
I have two kids playing ball and I coach defense on my younger kid's team (7-8) Three days a week I make them do about 30 minutes of strength work in addition to practice. When they whine, I push them to finish. This is all in my living room with a medicine ball and 2 ten lb. kettlebells. My lovely wife believes this is too much; that I am pushing them away from enjoying the game; that they are doing this only for me. I feel like the strength work is minimal; it isolates muscles used in the game; makes them less susceptible to injury and pays dividends on the field. I played college ball thanks to youth, middle and high school coaches who pushed the heck out of me. There are IMO enough "hand holders" out there.

Just wanted some of you all to weigh in on this subject.


I understand what you are saying about the hand holding. I got the crap beat out of my nearly every day until I was 12 for some reason or another and today my father would probably go to jail for child abuse (different times way back then and different ways of thinking). I didn't feel abused, but If I had known people were so sensitive I would have used that to help me get out of my beatings :) Kids have no idea how easy they have it today... but why would they? They have nothing to compare it to in their experience.

Seriously, it is hard. You are in a different place mentally and you got to the college level which requires self sacrafice to the Nth degree. You have to work a real job for a living and realize that what you are teaching them is fun stuff (they don't realize this). It's not the boring work you have to do day in and day out to pay the bills just so you can steal away a few minutes a day to have fun doing sports. Your kids have NO Idea! And no matter how many times you explain that to them, they still will have NO idea. They live in a different world and a different reality.

At that age if you make them do anything... it is work to them. They must want to do it, not be told to do it. So when you make them do that extra sports "Work" they are like 90% of Americans on Monday morning when they get up and go to work, they dread it! Think about how you feel when you have to go to work and have to stop doing something that you think of as play! You do it because it is the responsible thing to do, but I doubt you like it as much as you do playing/coaching sports ;) They don't like it either and it is not fun to them. To them everything should be fun, otherwise why do it?

just my 2 cents...

Good Luck!

j




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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 01:25 AM Reply With Quote


Real life! I have had my kid in football and other sports since he was 6/7 years old. I was the HC for the last 5 years and have come to a startling conclusion. WE ARE BURNING OUR KIDS OUT!

In the first 4 years we would lose 2 to3 kids every year. Mostly because they never wanted to play FB anyway and it was obvious FB was not their sport. In the last two years we have lost 6 and 10 kids respectfully. Some still don't belong in FB but some just got burned out. Coaching and parental pressure can be disgusting. In our particular case the kids that quit say we have had 5 years and it is no longer any fun! The average kid does not like football after 5 years of the demands and grind that is required to play football at a high level. Most of the gring comes from parental or obsessive coaches pressures rather than the game itself. The end result is good football payers get burned out and quit around the 6th and 7th grade level. Although this happens regardless of pressure from parents and coaches I believe that if you PUSH TOO HARD TOO EARLY they will surely rebel and start hating football. Football is the one sport that does the best about controlling when they can start practice and play but it is also the most physically and emotionally demanding. Watch out for burn out! If I had it to do all over, I would not start my kid at 7 years old, but rather at 9 or 19.

Preaching ending - KEEP IT FUN as long as humanly possible. Don't push too hard too early. Remember the ultimate goal should not be to win every game, but to develope a love of football that will last forever!!!


Coach MIKE
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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 05:18 AM Reply With Quote


Yeah, too much, but I admire your support for your kids. They will NEVER appreciate being driven like that, well not until they are adults and realize that you only wanted them to be successful.

Id say give that kind of drive a rest until they are in 8th grade.




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CoachDP
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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 09:33 AM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by www.CoachCalande.com

Yeah, too much, but I admire your support for your kids.

--Steve, I agree.

They will NEVER appreciate being driven like that,

--Agree.

well not until they are adults and realize that you only wanted them to be successful.

--And perhaps not even then.

--Dave

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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 10:18 AM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by mdgsrg
Real life! I have had my kid in football and other sports since he was 6/7 years old. I was the HC for the last 5 years and have come to a startling conclusion. WE ARE BURNING OUR KIDS OUT!

In the first 4 years we would lose 2 to3 kids every year. Mostly because they never wanted to play FB anyway and it was obvious FB was not their sport. In the last two years we have lost 6 and 10 kids respectfully. Some still don't belong in FB but some just got burned out. Coaching and parental pressure can be disgusting. In our particular case the kids that quit say we have had 5 years and it is no longer any fun! The average kid does not like football after 5 years of the demands and grind that is required to play football at a high level. Most of the gring comes from parental or obsessive coaches pressures rather than the game itself. The end result is good football payers get burned out and quit around the 6th and 7th grade level. Although this happens regardless of pressure from parents and coaches I believe that if you PUSH TOO HARD TOO EARLY they will surely rebel and start hating football. Football is the one sport that does the best about controlling when they can start practice and play but it is also the most physically and emotionally demanding. Watch out for burn out! If I had it to do all over, I would not start my kid at 7 years old, but rather at 9 or 19.

Preaching ending - KEEP IT FUN as long as humanly possible. Don't push too hard too early. Remember the ultimate goal should not be to win every game, but to develope a love of football that will last forever!!!


Coach MIKE
I dont agree with all of that. You can push them and still make it fun. I work my players hard. I started with the group Im with when they where 7. This group has continually grown. They are now in the 8th grade adn we have the biggest (numbers) team we have ever had. My players cant wait for the season to start. You just have to have a balance. My youngest just started and he is 7. He will be a mpp this year. No problems, as long as he is having fun Im happy, and he is.



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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 12:44 PM Reply With Quote


Even though it may seem like you are getting a ton of grief here, please try to keep it in perspective. As coaches we all have expectations for our teams and for the players on them.

You can push them hard to learn the things you are teaching. You can push them hard to do it right. However, you cannot put your drive and determination into every child. We all forget at times that they are little kids. These boys have a ton of pressure on them from you and dads to be football players. But often our adult version of a football player is 6'4, 300 pounds of dynamite with the fuse lit. As such, you cant have or hold them to ADULT responsibilities or expectations.

I most certainly do have higher expectations for the kids who have played for me before. They already know this stuff and once the rust is knocked off, I expect them to do a little more than they did the previous year. You will get an ear full if you've played for me and I catch you standing there with your finger in yer nose. You'll also get an ear full if I catch you laughing at someone elses mistakes. You are expected to help the newbies learn.

Heck they were tackling the coaches today harder than they hit their teammates. But they learned and had a lot of fun learning!!

Remember that if you punish, you should praise even more.




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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 01:09 PM Reply With Quote


I am not a coach, but a parent. My son plays Pop Warner and just started his second year. He is 13 and playing in the Junior Midget division. What is important to me is he has fun, learns the game and wants to play again next year. He also has played flag since in was 6.

If you saw Rod Woodson's HOF speech he talks about his first youth coach, who was in attendance.

Below is a quote from his speech:

"But Coach, I want you to know one thing, every time my kids play a sport, I compare all youth coaches to you. To make it fun, to make it enjoyable, to make the kid come back the following year. I think that's what you coaches are about. Thank you, Coach."

FYI... Just a parents perspective looking into your world of coaching.
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wilrun2
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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 03:32 PM Reply With Quote


I appreciate everyone's perspective but I don't want you to think I stand over them and scream and yell. I believe in making the game fun but ensuring they give their all at the same time. And I believe those concepts can co-exist. Several coaches I respect(some on this site) adhere to the belief that what you don't correct, you tolerate, and bad habits are the hardest to break. Correcting a player at any age is can't always pleasant.
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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 04:50 PM Reply With Quote


I think you may be pushing them a bit too hard. But, I'm not there and I'm not trying to tell you how to raise or coach your sons. I think it's great that you are supporting your kids activities. That's no bs, either. I coach kids from broken households, wards of worn out grandparents, single parents and a whole host of others that could not care less about supporting their kids' interests.

It's not about standing over your sons screaming and yelling. We as parents and coaches want one equations in our kids' heads: "Football = Fun!" If they're whining and want to quit the extra training you're giving them in order for them to play then they are not having fun. In their minds, the equation is now: "Football =\= Fun".
What we, as former players, coaches and, adults know that a child doesn't know is that future football equations get tougher when they have to start putting in sacrifice, hardwork, determination, etc... They have plenty of time to learn that. Introduce the concept to them in small bites.

But, I do believe there's a way for you to do it your way without getting called to the mat by the boss (your wife). BTW, please think of this as only a suggestion. If your sons are like most sons at that age, they want to do just about everything Dad does. So, do the workouts yourself in their presence. If they see you enjoying doing workouts they'll come to you to be taught. You'll just need to be careful on how much they do, etc... I wouldn't worry too much about them training with weights at their ages. But, if you feel that weight training is a must, start them off with smaller weights and let them 'work their way up' to the weights that you would like them to use. Let them push themselves. I would probably start them with negligible weights. My concern would be proper form and attitude.
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wilrun2
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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 07:36 PM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by tiger46
I think you may be pushing them a bit too hard. But, I'm not there and I'm not trying to tell you how to raise or coach your sons. I think it's great that you are supporting your kids activities. That's no bs, either. I coach kids from broken households, wards of worn out grandparents, single parents and a whole host of others that could not care less about supporting their kids' interests.

It's not about standing over your sons screaming and yelling. We as parents and coaches want one equations in our kids' heads: "Football = Fun!" If they're whining and want to quit the extra training you're giving them in order for them to play then they are not having fun. In their minds, the equation is now: "Football =\= Fun".
What we, as former players, coaches and, adults know that a child doesn't know is that future football equations get tougher when they have to start putting in sacrifice, hardwork, determination, etc... They have plenty of time to learn that. Introduce the concept to them in small bites.

But, I do believe there's a way for you to do it your way without getting called to the mat by the boss (your wife). BTW, please think of this as only a suggestion. If your sons are like most sons at that age, they want to do just about everything Dad does. So, do the workouts yourself in their presence. If they see you enjoying doing workouts they'll come to you to be taught. You'll just need to be careful on how much they do, etc... I wouldn't worry too much about them training with weights at their ages. But, if you feel that weight training is a must, start them off with smaller weights and let them 'work their way up' to the weights that you would like them to use. Let them push themselves. I would probably start them with negligible weights. My concern would be proper form and attitude.


I appreciate your insight and what we do is in EXTREMELY small doses. But I agree 100%, that football must = fun.
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[*] posted on 8-15-2009 at 11:33 PM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by wilrun2

I appreciate everyone's perspective but I don't want you to think I stand over them and scream and yell. Several coaches I respect(some on this site) adhere to the belief that what you don't correct, you tolerate, and bad habits are the hardest to break. Correcting a player at any age is can't always pleasant.
But to your kids, you're a dad first and a coach second. If this was "Coach" who was being a hard-ass, then I believe it's more palatable to kids. But if it's Dad who's being the hard-ass, kids may wonder "what do I have to do to please this guy?"

--Dave
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[*] posted on 8-16-2009 at 01:37 AM Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by CoachDP
But to your kids, you're a dad first and a coach second. If this was "Coach" who was being a hard-ass, then I believe it's more palatable to kids. But if it's Dad who's being the hard-ass, kids may wonder "what do I have to do to please this guy?"

--Dave


Dave this may be the best point of all! You are so right!

As I said earlier it is not an easy thing... knowing where to draw the line.

Excellent!

j




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[*] posted on 8-17-2009 at 03:10 AM Reply With Quote


More on pushing too hard.

As a coach you must strike a balance between the kids that are " born to play football", the " good but reluctant" and the " the kid that dad made play or the kid that thought I wanted want to play". This is where the problems start. In my case my son liked football alot but has never loved football like I did. If I pushed too hard I could tell he might give it up someday. Luckily he is still going in 7th grade and I see some hunger in his attitude so far this year. That said 5 kids from last year quit football. 2 of which should not have given it up. Over the last 5 years some of my best players "liked football" but never loved it. If you lucky as a coach your core group who "loves football". Your job is easy. If you get a group of kids who are soft and are playing because Dad did or wants them to, then you are in trouble. I always thought I did a good job of relating to the kids and their level of commitment for football. The problem always came from the Dad or Mom who thought that little Jimmy was ahead or behind the rest of the kids as a result of your coaching philosophy. It would be a miracle if 1/2 your team was at the same ability or desire level. If I asked the kids on my 11 year old team what their favorite sport was - 12 would say baseball. AAAAARGGHH!

We were a middle of the pack team in an outstanding division. We were terribly undersized but faster than most. How do your reply to the "football first Dad that says your kids don't have the heart to play at the top division in football? Of course they don't. the majority of them live for other sports, are too small, or will never be descent football players because their heart isn't truly ito it. They are playing for fun! Most of them had a great time win or lose but the few who ate, slept, and drank football were miserable.

Advise wise, to make a long story short - it must be communicated early and often what your philosophy and goals are in order to stay out most conflicts with parents. The solutuion in the long run is in order for ORGANIZED FOOOTBALL to compete with the demands of year round soccer and baseball - football must continue to be the most FUN! Football organizations must figure out how to provide the #1 competitive division for those who demand it and the ability to let the football crazies grow and flourish, The average kids and the rest of the leaguemust try to develope kids for the future by letting the kids have fun without all the pressure.

In my case. I can tell my son is built for football but his love is basketball. He is pretty athletic for a 12 year old 5'5" tall and 145 Lbs. Right now he plays center because he is big but he is not tall enough to be a true center at his age but he is built just right to be an intimidating football player. If he played football with the same desire he shows in basketballl he could be scary. God it's Hard not to push!

Anyway - Keep it fun and let them play everything they want otherwise very soon in the future he/she will give up the sport you hope they wont.

Coach Mike
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