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Author Topic: Camp  (Read 1563 times)

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Offline mahonz

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Re: Camp
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2017, 06:10:43 PM »
You'll never get Mike to agree with it. He is staunchly anti pull.

LOL.....Lar pulled his tackles at times to lead for toss sweep last Spring.  8)

They never blocked anyone important but it looked really cool....just like 90% of all youth plays that involve pulling outside of trap  :) :)

Still...trap works 10 times better if you dont pull to trap but rather Wham with a back. And yes I hope Lar is thinking about trap. His offense is set up beautifully for Whams.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Camp
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2017, 06:54:17 PM »
L

First, we use several different pulls.

On Power it's a Skip pull or an O pull. Trial an error is how we determine which pull to use. The idea is which ever pull works better for that player is one we use.

Next, our key coaching point is to be tight to the down block. We tell our guards they need to scrape their elbow on the man's butt. That way a defender can't come inside of the down block.

M

We always have been very successful on our pulls at the youth level. The key is to keep doing it. On our G play I have even commented that early in the season the outside pull guys look great & do nothing. After a few times doing it all of a sudden they will be blowing people up. Since our goal is always to get better my advice is keep working on it & you will be surprised just how good they get at it.

Joe
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Camp
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2017, 07:07:22 PM »
L



M

We always have been very successful on our pulls at the youth level. The key is to keep doing it. On our G play I have even commented that early in the season the outside pull guys look great & do nothing. After a few times doing it all of a sudden they will be blowing people up. Since our goal is always to get better my advice is keep working on it & you will be surprised just how good they get at it.

Joe


Too much work for average results...meaning as long as DC's play their minimums on the DL.

Now whamming you can target any DL position with very little teaching for your OLM.

What I REALLY like about whams....you typically get an extra OLM on the LB'r at the POA. I actually learned this coaching the semi pros. My Header thought the same thing as I do now about pulling in general. During that era....my youth them was pulling. Wing T principles.  So I watched every single youth play for two seasons...

Yep....pulling was a lot of work with average results. That next season...Wing T principles again....we based our Offense on Wham traps. We ran it as straight up, as wraps, as counters, as suckers and even gave it to the Wham back naked.  Really liked it. OLM only needed to know POA so they could release the correct trap victim and climb.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Camp
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2017, 07:56:37 PM »
M

Average results? IMHO the results have been much better than average.

First play of the NC's  65 yds on power for a TD. G runs over 20 yds 5 -6 times a game. Then again our Guards played FB on most teams.

If the Wham is your offense then great, but even running the BPI we pulled guards. I think for the amount of work the pay off is worth it.

Joe
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Bill Walsh

Offline mahonz

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Re: Camp
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 08:21:24 PM »
M

Average results? IMHO the results have been much better than average.

First play of the NC's  65 yds on power for a TD. G runs over 20 yds 5 -6 times a game. Then again our Guards played FB on most teams.

If the Wham is your offense then great, but even running the BPI we pulled guards. I think for the amount of work the pay off is worth it.

Joe


Not my point.

At the youth level...average results for time spent.  Other levels...have at it.

I do like traditional sucker trap to the FB out of the I at the youth level. Great play. But that's about it.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Camp
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2017, 08:59:05 PM »
M

As young as 10 I have seen great pullers. Especially with wider splits it's becomes extremely invaluable.

Joe
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Camp
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2017, 09:40:56 PM »
M

As young as 10 I have seen great pullers. Especially with wider splits it's becomes extremely invaluable.

Joe


Oh sure. Not questioning that at all. I simply decided one day that I would spend my energy teaching other things. This was also at the cusp of my zone days where pulling was not necessary.

A well executed trap is a beautiful play indeed.  A well executed long pull....is luck.  :)
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Online PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Camp
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2017, 07:07:18 AM »
Mike,
Sometimes there just isn't anybody for the puller to block. Or at least where you would expect them to be. Not all the pulls get a hat on a hat. That is usually because the backers or safety is just off somewhere doing something else which is good because he should be filling the darn c gap when he sees a block down and ko. We had a ton of long runs on power. It was our most explosive play by far. Without the pull it becomes a 3 yard play every play unless the defense screws up. The time spent on pulling for a team that bases off power is just something that is in you edds and group time daily. Teams that base on zone have other stuff they do that we don't do. Your passing game stuff is probably much more involved than most youth teams because that isn't what they do. But if you are a power/counter offense you pull. To get good at any blocking scheme it takes time. I don't have a problem with taking that time. What I do have a problem with is some of the guys I have coached with recently that think once you go over it 4 or 5 time it is good enough and you don't have to keep repping it. Pulling game one sucks. Game 4 it is starting to come together. Playoff time the pulls are working well and they better be because you are facing backers that actually are filling.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Camp
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2017, 11:26:55 AM »
Oh sure. Not questioning that at all. I simply decided one day that I would spend my energy teaching other things. This was also at the cusp of my zone days where pulling was not necessary.

A well executed trap is a beautiful play indeed.  A well executed long pull....is luck.  :)

My logic on pulling a guard:
We have to kick the force defender on our edge runs anyway. Using a backside G frees up a back to block downfield, ASSuming nothing goes wrong due to the pull.

Due to the way we practice, I've had to adjust and one of the benefits of that is learning to install things simply and on the fly. That sweep pull thing took 15 seconds to get going, for example. Same thing for the combo block. If I can't accomplish a pulling G to kick a 9, with the H knowing to go 2nd level, I'll bail on it. No big deal. Going to try it in Beast first because the force defender is going to stick out like a sore thumb if he crosses the LOS. Just a simple tag with 2 guys knowing they're doing something different. Forget about filling the gap left by the puller. This will be dependent on defensive alignment. The first time a G whiffs on a 9 tech, consider it "sh*t canned".

But . . . if it works like I think it might. I can just make call that tag on a "Snake Whiskey".
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Camp
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2017, 02:06:16 PM »
My logic on pulling a guard:
We have to kick the force defender on our edge runs anyway. Using a backside G frees up a back to block downfield, ASSuming nothing goes wrong due to the pull.

Due to the way we practice, I've had to adjust and one of the benefits of that is learning to install things simply and on the fly. That sweep pull thing took 15 seconds to get going, for example. Same thing for the combo block. If I can't accomplish a pulling G to kick a 9, with the H knowing to go 2nd level, I'll bail on it. No big deal. Going to try it in Beast first because the force defender is going to stick out like a sore thumb if he crosses the LOS. Just a simple tag with 2 guys knowing they're doing something different. Forget about filling the gap left by the puller. This will be dependent on defensive alignment. The first time a G whiffs on a 9 tech, consider it "sh*t canned".

But . . . if it works like I think it might. I can just make call that tag on a "Snake Whiskey".

Considering the talent you had for pulling....they gave it a good go. But it was still a long pull.  They are simply not used to headhunting vs fast flow in space while on the run. You can rep the bejesus out of it in practice but IMHO it is something that requires game day reps.

The reason...every defense is different. Short pulls like you describe I believe are worth the effort. Trap, KO, X.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Camp
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2017, 05:52:49 PM »
Pulling a guard at the Youth level can be the advantage needed between an average play & a great play. The biggest issue is putting the right player in the position. In order to execute the pulls it has to be a player who loves to run & hit.

In college & the NFL the guards tend to bigger guys in order to block the DT's. In HS & Youth you can have smaller quicker players there as long as they love to hit. Our first year at MH we had Guards at 14 U that were 135 & 140 lbs. Quite often the DT's were over 230 lbs. They couldn't drive them, but man on their pulls they crushed people.

Joe
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Camp
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2017, 03:48:33 PM »
Pulling a guard at the Youth level can be the advantage needed between an average play & a great play. The biggest issue is putting the right player in the position. In order to execute the pulls it has to be a player who loves to run & hit.

In college & the NFL the guards tend to bigger guys in order to block the DT's. In HS & Youth you can have smaller quicker players there as long as they love to hit. Our first year at MH we had Guards at 14 U that were 135 & 140 lbs. Quite often the DT's were over 230 lbs. They couldn't drive them, but man on their pulls they crushed people.

Joe


Meh...take the DW for example. They pull 2 for toss and counter.

Do they make a difference with the younger kids? Sometimes. More so they either cant get out of the backfield or get run past by the ball carrier while hitting air, get in the way or simply spin like a top looking for work.

The ENERGY spent to pull two....immense. Worth it? At the upper levels yes....youth levels?....I vote no. It simply looks cool and nothing more.  8)

I think the only advantage watching these clips might be that the football probably gets lost in all the mayhem but the pullers are doing more conditioning than hitting....and they are hitters when they do hit.

Looks like the multiple seasons of my own film when I finally convinced myself....enough. Better things to teach that actually produce results.

https://youtu.be/NpqjC_ENLX0
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 04:00:39 PM by mahonz »
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Re: Camp
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2017, 03:51:39 PM »
Honestly Mike, we abandoned pulling two in the dw the first year we ran it. It was so much less coaching intensive and it worked as well if not better for us. But without the guard pull it dies not work as an offense very well. Especially against good teams. If you can't get a hat on the backers you are screwed.

Offline mahonz

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Re: Camp
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2017, 04:08:08 PM »
Honestly Mike, we abandoned pulling two in the dw the first year we ran it. It was so much less coaching intensive and it worked as well if not better for us. But without the guard pull it dies not work as an offense very well. Especially against good teams. If you can't get a hat on the backers you are screwed.

Do you have film? If so go back and watch....I think you will be surprised.

I didnt cherry pick that film other than I wanted youth film. I could have posted any team....all the same. Long pulling is 100% hit and miss....more miss than hit.

Why not...just play a G or T OVER and be done with it? Still the DW.

This of course with younger kids. The HS DW?....dont mess with success and stick with the plan.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Camp
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2017, 04:34:59 PM »
Honestly Mike, we abandoned pulling two in the dw the first year we ran it. It was so much less coaching intensive and it worked as well if not better for us. But without the guard pull it dies not work as an offense very well. Especially against good teams. If you can't get a hat on the backers you are screwed.

Is that KH Warriors film yours?
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