Author Topic: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability  (Read 4257 times)

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2017, 07:00:12 AM »
I am always leery of the word motivate. I have seen plenty, coach with guys who can "motivate." Most of the time motivating is cheer leading. Most of the time that become coaching. Those guys spend most of their time talking when the kids should be getting reps.

You want to see a kid who is motivated? See a kid who knows he is getting better everyday. you cannot  make a kid better with the macho crap that I see daily in the fall.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2017, 09:30:44 AM »
The point of my question was that there are a lot of different factors that go into being a good coach. Knowing &
 teaching are very different. Handling adversity is an other matter. It seems in Youth Football there is coaches who can do all the same drills &
 run systems with very different results.

Motivation is another issue. Being a rah rah coach isn't always the answer either. Knute Rockne was famous for his motivation but his teaching gets overlooked.

The next issue is having a plan. Great teams are better in week 10 than they were in week 1.

Then comes actual coaching in a game. Some coaches out think their teams. Having a play on the ready list doesn't mean you have to run
 that play.

Lastly comes the ability to players in the right position. This is often where I see the biggest problems.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2017, 09:39:35 AM »
You minimized knowledge in one of your post, then in your last post you suggested that knowledge is really more important than not. If you don't know football, then your ability to be good football coach is minimized.
The drill thing is easily explainable. Anybody can get a drill and run. Most coaches are not knowledgeable or willing to work hard enough to under the purpose of the drill
Putting people in the right position goes to you got it, Knowing football, knowledge. If you do not have the knowledge, you can still get by, but at some point, it catches up to you. it is why we have people who switch systems every year. The heart of the problem in all cases is the people.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2017, 10:25:20 AM »
You minimized knowledge in one of your post, then in your last post you suggested that knowledge is really more important than not. If you don't know football, then your ability to be good football coach is minimized.This is the paradox that I am questioning. Obviously knowledge is important, but more important is the ability to teach the knowledge.

The drill thing is easily explainable. Anybody can get a drill and run. Most coaches are not knowledgeable or willing to work hard enough to under the purpose of the drillSee the post about running drills & ruining drills

Putting people in the right position goes to you got it, Knowing football, knowledge. If you do not have the knowledge, you can still get by, but at some point, it catches up to you. it is why we have people who switch systems every year. The heart of the problem in all cases is the people.IMHO this is exactly where a lot of coaches fail. It comes down to doing what will work for the individual team.Making the best use of your available talent often is an art.

Several things made me post this question. Some actually from here on the board, others from my personal life.While it is extremely important to have a balance of all of the factors, for me I feel I can teach a coach the details, but I can't teach him to be respected & listened to by the players.

Joe
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Bill Walsh

Offline mpwcoachsmith

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 10:46:24 AM »
While both are obviously needed, I think I would prioritize coaching ability over knowledge.  I see lots of coaches with impressive resumes with tons of experience and knowledge, but if you can't convey that knowledge, or dumb it down to the appropriate level, it just doesn't matter what you know.

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2017, 11:06:28 AM »
So now we are back to minimizing knowledge. Wow. Knowledge and the ability teach are not separate issues. We have plenty of people who can teach and know nothing.
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Offline mpwcoachsmith

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2017, 11:16:00 AM »
I'm not trying to minimize knowledge.  Just an observation in what I think I have seen in youth sports.

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2017, 11:18:18 AM »
I'm not trying to minimize knowledge.  Just an observation in what I think I have seen in youth sports.
If more people had the knowledge, I contend this game would be far better taught. And I blame on those who lack the knowledge, not the game, not the schemes, not even ability.
The biggest bone though is that it is implied that kids do not understand, that kids are the ones needing stupefied, WRONG! Anybody watch a kid play video games? Aint a scheme on earth that requires the understanding that some of those video game require, but yet its the kids who wont understand. Kids haven't changed, adults have- Robert Knight said something to the like.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 11:22:26 AM by user007 »
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2017, 01:20:06 PM »
I don't think anyone is trying to minimize knowledge so much as to discriminate between paper knowledge & field knowledge. I see posts all the time that sound logical until they are put to grass. Winning is purely a function of what a team can do on grass.

Here is an example of what I mean:

Some defenses call for the 3 technique to wrong arm a trapper. Great idea, but for me in my scheme it has never really worked. I teach the 3 technique to trap the trapper & knock the snot out of him. I have had great success doing this. That doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

Maybe I don't teach it right, maybe I don't know how to drill it. Either way I don't say it sucks, merely not how I do things. I think there needs to be a balance between being smart & applying what works.

When I first moved to Charlotte I had the privilege of watching a team that was coming close to De La Salle's win streak. It was the first game of the year. I saw an opponent who had a new coach, so they weren't quite sure what they would run.They ran a grab bag of offensive sets. The defense seamlessly adjusted with zero confusion. I could see how well they were coached. They had an instant answer for any formation, & then played hard. 2 weeks later they lost to a team in Ohio in a game by 3 points, I think they had 130 wins at that point.
 They rebounded to go on to win the State Championship. It's a testament to their coaching.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2017, 02:55:28 PM »
I don't think anyone is trying to minimize knowledge so much as to discriminate between paper knowledge & field knowledge. I see posts all the time that sound logical until they are put to grass. Winning is purely a function of what a team can do on grass.

Here is an example of what I mean:

Some defenses call for the 3 technique to wrong arm a trapper. Great idea, but for me in my scheme it has never really worked. I teach the 3 technique to trap the trapper & knock the snot out of him. I have had great success doing this. That doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

Maybe I don't teach it right, maybe I don't know how to drill it. Either way I don't say it sucks, merely not how I do things. I think there needs to be a balance between being smart & applying what works.

When I first moved to Charlotte I had the privilege of watching a team that was coming close to De La Salle's win streak. It was the first game of the year. I saw an opponent who had a new coach, so they weren't quite sure what they would run.They ran a grab bag of offensive sets. The defense seamlessly adjusted with zero confusion. I could see how well they were coached. They had an instant answer for any formation, & then played hard. 2 weeks later they lost to a team in Ohio in a game by 3 points, I think they had 130 wins at that point.
 They rebounded to go on to win the State Championship. It's a testament to their coaching.

Joe

LOL! With all due respect to anybody living in Ohio, They lost to a team in OHIO!!! I saw Venice run to a state championship. That coach last heard, name is coleman, still doesn't have job.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2017, 03:07:19 PM »
I am always leery of the word motivate. I have seen plenty, coach with guys who can "motivate." Most of the time motivating is cheer leading. Most of the time that become coaching. Those guys spend most of their time talking when the kids should be getting reps.

You want to see a kid who is motivated? See a kid who knows he is getting better everyday. you cannot  make a kid better with the macho crap that I see daily in the fall.

Im leery of coaches that think motivation is all about words or being macho.

You are at least a million miles off base if that is what you believe to be the only tool used to motivate. Its actually not even necessary with most.

Consider this.

You have 24 6th graders. 8 will naturally self motivate on a football field, in the classroom, at home with chores, etc. But those same 8 do not self motivate in all phases consistently. Kids self motivate at different levels at different times with different activities.  You have 2 that self motivate on the field but have an F in Science. You have 3 straight A students that are being forced to play football....and so on.

A GREAT motivator will attempt teach those 24 6th graders how to self start in all phases of life. Attempt being the keyword. Im not out there coaching to be their parents. Gotta have some support at home too which will ALWAYS happen when you attempt to help motivate the parents.

I cant even count how many times a parent wants to keep Jr home from practice to catch up on school. Wrong !  Get him to practice so I can begin to work my magic. He isnt going to get better in school by missing practice here and there. That actually is counterproductive.  The damage is done and its going to be a process to fix.

Its why becoming academically ineligible in HS is just about the dumbest idea ever. Have that player do his homework and get caught up on his assignments AT practice. Been there done that and it works.

All this motivation requires few words...exactly ZERO macho crap....and motives the kid big time....in all phases of life. 

That is one example.  Just last month I met with a players Mother, Teacher, Principle at school. The kid had only done 17% of the work required. Thought the Teachers were out to get him so I reminded him of something I always tell all of my players....

When my foot isnt in your ass....when i stop getting nose to nose with you to the point Im spitting on you....then I have stopped caring.

That hit home with him. His Teachers care enough to put their foot in his ass and go nose to nose with him. He is at 50% now and  has 8 weeks to pass the 7th grade. He is going to pull thru.

And yes I said ass at the meeting. The by the book Principle loved it because she cant do that.

My Fall Header and I had an interesting discussion when we first started coaching together about 5 years ago. The kids were 3rd graders. He has twins on the team. He was asking me about discipline. The accountability topic came up.  I told him that I will fire kids at the drop of a hat. He told me I cant fire kids because they wont get it and will quit.

5 years later I have fired his twins at least a dozen times each. The trick is how you re-hire them. Highly motivates them. Has nothing to do with scheme or technique or even getting better at football. Has everything to do with being accountable....once there they learn to self start.

I could blabber on for a week on this subject.
 

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2017, 04:47:33 PM »
Im leery of coaches that think motivation is all about words or being macho.

You are at least a million miles off base if that is what you believe to be the only tool used to motivate. Its actually not even necessary with most.

Consider this.

You have 24 6th graders. 8 will naturally self motivate on a football field, in the classroom, at home with chores, etc. But those same 8 do not self motivate in all phases consistently. Kids self motivate at different levels at different times with different activities.  You have 2 that self motivate on the field but have an F in Science. You have 3 straight A students that are being forced to play football....and so on.

A GREAT motivator will attempt teach those 24 6th graders how to self start in all phases of life. Attempt being the keyword. Im not out there coaching to be their parents. Gotta have some support at home too which will ALWAYS happen when you attempt to help motivate the parents.

I cant even count how many times a parent wants to keep Jr home from practice to catch up on school. Wrong !  Get him to practice so I can begin to work my magic. He isnt going to get better in school by missing practice here and there. That actually is counterproductive.  The damage is done and its going to be a process to fix.

Its why becoming academically ineligible in HS is just about the dumbest idea ever. Have that player do his homework and get caught up on his assignments AT practice. Been there done that and it works.

All this motivation requires few words...exactly ZERO macho crap....and motives the kid big time....in all phases of life. 

That is one example.  Just last month I met with a players Mother, Teacher, Principle at school. The kid had only done 17% of the work required. Thought the Teachers were out to get him so I reminded him of something I always tell all of my players....

When my foot isnt in your ass....when i stop getting nose to nose with you to the point Im spitting on you....then I have stopped caring.

That hit home with him. His Teachers care enough to put their foot in his ass and go nose to nose with him. He is at 50% now and  has 8 weeks to pass the 7th grade. He is going to pull thru.

And yes I said ass at the meeting. The by the book Principle loved it because she cant do that.

My Fall Header and I had an interesting discussion when we first started coaching together about 5 years ago. The kids were 3rd graders. He has twins on the team. He was asking me about discipline. The accountability topic came up.  I told him that I will fire kids at the drop of a hat. He told me I cant fire kids because they wont get it and will quit.

5 years later I have fired his twins at least a dozen times each. The trick is how you re-hire them. Highly motivates them. Has nothing to do with scheme or technique or even getting better at football. Has everything to do with being accountable....once there they learn to self start.

I could blabber on for a week on this subject.
We live in scary times. LOL!!!
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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2017, 09:30:16 PM »
Call me a Minimalist.   Establish what they can do well and expand from there.  IDK if its 4 plays!  On the Defensive side, BASE first! 

Neither of which means you cant be aggressive! 
 

 ;)
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2017, 08:04:50 AM »
I'll take the guy who can get his kids to play hard and with passion every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It's EASY to get that person that little bit of knowledge necessary to win football games - you don't need much.  Much easier than it is to learn how to teach and motivate players.

Football is an easy sport.  If you outhit the other team, you're going to win an awful lot of games.

Offline bignose

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Re: Coaching Knowledge vs Coaching Ability
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2017, 09:02:41 AM »
Here is an idea:

Chart of desired traits in a coaching situation.

Player overall athleticism                           Coaching Knowledge/Experience

Player motivation and effort.                       Player mastery of technique

Somewhere above is the ideal combination of what is needed.
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