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Author Topic: 4-4 Split vs. DW  (Read 9699 times)

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Offline dbsesq

Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 01:43:21 PM »
When I ran the DW we installed and used the part scheme.  It was a nice mix up from the TKO blocking we had been using and it was very useful against a widetackle 6 team we played.  This was at a younger age group so we did not have the counter with the part scheme installed.

Offline jrk5150

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 01:57:39 PM »
All depends on age group.  If I had 12-14's/MS age, I'd definitely have part installed for the counter cutback, and/or some kind of X blocked blast type play.

But with 9-10's, I have yet to install part.  Haven't needed it.  Scrimmaged one 4-4 team, and they were a bitch to move the ball on, but we did it.  They had one brute E that we couldn't move out of the C gap, so we just ran away from him.

By the way, JrTitan, I did not intend my earlier post to be a chalk war, as in "I can beat that", just pointing out a theoretical problem for that D.  As I said, I don't install it, so you'd spank me, LOL.

Offline JrTitan

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 02:00:53 PM »
About the only flaw I see there is the same that the WT 6 has - if the DW has a PART blocking scheme in, you're going to have a problem.  Especially if that PART scheme is run off a counter cutback to take advantage of your FS coming up.  If your DT's are inside shade, you're susceptible to it.

What is the PART scheme?
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 02:05:53 PM »
Exactly what I typed out.  Also found on Jack's Articles page.

We have the C and G block TKO/Down, and the T and TE block out.  We part the OL right there and run right up the gap. 

When the DL goes inside shade on the G, and the next guy is outside the T, it provides a mechanical advantage to open up the B gap.  Then it allows the O to send the best two blockers (FB and pulling G) onto your LB.  It's essentially a tighter power with the T and TE blocking out.

Deadly against the WT 6 or a 44 imitating it, but again - rarely installed.  Hence you not being aware of it.  Which is also why I tried to point out that I'm not trying to one up you, since it's not something you'd see a ton of.

Offline Yankee Charlie

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2011, 02:53:40 PM »
WT6 defenses are easily trapped.  Since Mountjoy was trying to demo how to stop the "DW Sweep", I was trying to keep the conversation around rules blocking and running POWER.  Again, I see distinct advantages a Wing On call gives to continue to Run Power, but, if he popular belief is that I can't move 2 OL with 2 double teams and kick the EMLOS, I just mentioned that we could TRAP under POWER MOTION.  That is a play most DW teams have installed.

The Wide Tackle is a great defense, if the offense cant exploit the B gap bubble.   
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Offline lost episodes

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2011, 03:43:26 PM »
Exactly what I typed out.  Also found on Jack's Articles page.

We have the C and G block TKO/Down, and the T and TE block out.  We part the OL right there and run right up the gap. 

When the DL goes inside shade on the G, and the next guy is outside the T, it provides a mechanical advantage to open up the B gap.  Then it allows the O to send the best two blockers (FB and pulling G) onto your LB.  It's essentially a tighter power with the T and TE blocking out.

Deadly against the WT 6 or a 44 imitating it, but again - rarely installed.  Hence you not being aware of it.  Which is also why I tried to point out that I'm not trying to one up you, since it's not something you'd see a ton of.
Can you draw it up for me!

Offline jrk5150

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2011, 03:51:41 PM »
Can you draw it up for me!

No.   8)

But here's a quick write up attached.

Jack has it in concise position by position detail on his web site as well.  He has the playside WB coming through the hole as an additional blocker.  But in the isolated case of this thread, we had wing ON, so that was moot.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 03:53:26 PM by jkoester »

Offline seeindouble

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2011, 05:00:01 PM »
 With F2F splits, that's a lot of bodies going through one hole. Now I've seen videos of Calande pulling as much as 3 OLM with success, but still...

Offline jrk5150

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2011, 06:19:04 PM »
Yup.

As I typed out, I think the play works just sending the G, FB and T (maybe) through the hole.  Even the T to me is a feel thing depending on what that MLB is doing.  But the default would be to put those three through in front of the ball.

But realize - if the N is pinching in, and the R is not, that's a big damn hole that opens up.

Offline Michael

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2011, 06:44:10 PM »
So it's like a cross block without having to cross, right?
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2011, 08:10:02 PM »
Yes.

Jack has a cross blocked play to the pulling side in his offense to block the 44, actually.  I thought of that after I typed out the PART scheme.  I see WT6, I think PART, LOL.

Offline JrTitan

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2011, 12:09:26 PM »
We have the C and G block TKO/Down, and the T and TE block out.  We part the OL right there and run right up the gap. 

When the DL goes inside shade on the G, and the next guy is outside the T, it provides a mechanical advantage to open up the B gap.  Then it allows the O to send the best two blockers (FB and pulling G) onto your LB.  It's essentially a tighter power with the T and TE blocking out.

Deadly against the WT 6 or a 44 imitating it, but again - rarely installed.  Hence you not being aware of it.  Which is also why I tried to point out that I'm not trying to one up you, since it's not something you'd see a ton of.

Is the inside wall of PART scheme probably more effective against true A gappers and bear crawlers versus a DT playing an inside shade technique?  Or is an inside shade considered a down block?  Good discussion.

Coaching points on the inside shade:
  • The guard is the pressure key and the center is the visual key.
  • Power step with near foot and shoot hands (or outside flipper) to neutralize the guard.   If the tackle feels pressure from the guard, he works across the guards’s face and bends towards the ball (i.e., fight pressure with pressure).
  • If the tackle does not feel pressure from the guard, he looks inside and reads the block of the center (even if the guard pulls outside) and does not penetrate:
    • If center turns out on the tackle, he works across the center’s face and close the hole over the center
    • If the center blocks away, the tackle steps inside looking for trap from opposite guard

  • If the guard pulls behind the center, the tackle looks inside to the center and alerts for “TRAP”.
  • The tackle can never be reached by the center on runs outside or by the guard on runs away.
  • He must defeat any double teams by setting himself against the post man (guard) and working his body into the gap.  If he gives give ground, he should grab clothe and make a pile.  The tackle should not spin out of double teams as this will clog up pursuit lanes of the linebackers.
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2011, 02:15:14 PM »
0 splits and a recessed line - not sure there's much difference between shade and gapped, actually.  If that DT isn't inside far enough to provide a mechanical advantage, then we likely won't run that play.  Unless our G is flat out better than your DT, anyway.

One other factor to think about - wedge.  If your DT's aren't inside far enough, then the O should be able to run wedge on the center.

If your DT's are good enough to stop wedge and not allow that G to stalemate them from an inside shade alignment, then we're in for a long day, LOL.  We'll then have to continue to go power with TKO and take on that DT with the G and T, and figure out another way to get that DE.  Wing On for sure.  Nasty split maybe.  Don't know.

I do plan to check out a cross blocked blast type play - T blocks down on the DT, G blocks out on next man, be it LB or DE.  That's even more leverage, and more chance to at minimum gain a stalemate.

Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2013, 10:40:43 AM »
WT-6 VS. DW:

I.  DE: Line up 1 yd. outside the Wing & on the LOS.
Always challenge the Wing.
a. If the Wing blocks down, DE replaces him closing down the running lane inside as much as possible, ready to take on a kick out block.
b. If the Wing comes AT DE, DE attacks the Wing with inside arm and leg, keeping outside arm and leg free.
c. If Wing goes in motion, DE gets his eyes opposite back for a counter. If no motion and flow goes away, look for bootleg, counter, reverse before pursuit.
d. If the Wing releases, DE plays his pass responsibility.


II.  DG & DT:  If OL splits are shoe to shoe - DG is HEAD UP on OG, & DT is HEAD UP on TE.  If they take SPLITS with the OG - DG's never get MORE than fingertip-touch apart (or 2' from the ball).  These are "age-old" split rules for the WT-6 as taught by it's FOUNDER - General Bob Neylant (Tennessee).  Do NOT take an inside alignment vs. "shoe -to-shoe" splits = gives the offense too good an ANGLE)!!!  SEE ATTACHMENTS:

III.  LBers head up on OT's & look THRU the OT for the BALL ("don't go until you KNOW where it is").

SEE ATTACHED PAGES (FOR DG & DT PLAY VS. DW):
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:33:05 AM by billmountjoy »
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Offline JrTitan

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2013, 11:37:10 AM »

SEE ATTACHED PAGES (FOR DG & DT PLAY VS. DW):

THANKS!!!
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