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Author Topic: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend  (Read 9944 times)

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Offline Coach Kyle

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Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« on: July 06, 2010, 11:32:05 PM »
What type of formations are hard for you to defend against, and what would you say the weakness of the 4-4 split are?

Offline coachnick

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 04:09:24 PM »
double wing........everyone hates to defend the greatest offense in the history of football!!

Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2010, 04:36:53 PM »
double wing........everyone hates to defend the greatest offense in the history of football!!

DW among easiest formations to defend UNLESS their players are much better than yours!
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Offline JrTitan

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2010, 09:40:01 AM »
What type of formations are hard for you to defend against, and what would you say the weakness of the 4-4 split are?

The defense adjusts/self adjusts to any "formation". So we are able to align against any formation.  An option offense (pick your formation) is the hardest style to defend for any defense, particulalry at this age.

Teams will try to trap the front so we coach that up.  Teams will also try to exploit the the strong flats because of the OLB's 7 tech alignment, but there are simple coverage adjustments to take that away.  Our opinion is that teams can't make a living against the defense by throwing to the strong flat.
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Offline Coach Kyle

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2010, 04:47:06 PM »
The defense adjusts/self adjusts to any "formation". So we are able to align against any formation.  An option offense (pick your formation) is the hardest style to defend for any defense, particulalry at this age.

Teams will try to trap the front so we coach that up.  Teams will also try to exploit the the strong flats because of the OLB's 7 tech alignment, but there are simple coverage adjustments to take that away.  Our opinion is that teams can't make a living against the defense by throwing to the strong flat.

How would you defend this?

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Offline KFMagee

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2010, 05:14:32 PM »
We only see 2 teams in our 12 team league that run this with any regularity (5-6 times per game) and we have ALWAYS shut it down... they tend to run a QB sweep and a Sprint out reverse, and we eat both of these alive.  The Falcons will also send the outside receiver on a fly, and when the QB does his sprint out sweep, he can throw it if he wants... we just key the outside back ... if he blocks we force - if he runs a route, then Bandit has him.  Otherswise this offense is run right into the strenght of our defense... the outside!

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Offline JrTitan

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 04:25:54 PM »
How would you defend this?

....o.o.o.0.o.o.o
.............o...............o.o.o


Not sure what the splits are but we would align below using our base rules:



  • Similar to what we call a TREY formation except the backfield is emptied.  Versus a TREY (trips to the TE side), SAM adjusts out on number #2 and strong end aligns in a 7 or 6 technique.  Mike and Will slide to 00 and 40 (i've got M and W flipped above).  With the backfield emptied, the ILB adjusts out on #3.
  • Rover aligns in a 7 tech when #1 to his side is a tight end
  • The safety takes his normal alignment splitting the #1's to both sides which cheats him over to the strong side
  • Corners align on #1 to their side

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Offline KFMagee

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 04:44:46 PM »
The tweaked version of this offensive formation gives us more fits when they keep a back in the backfield.... you still have a TRIPS effect, and still have two blockers on the backside (same as you would if there were a SE far to the left), but now you have to also worry about the dive play or the option pitch.  The defense right above this post is fine... but as soon as you put that dive back in backfield, it becomes weak off tackle.  Since the first version of the offense didn't have a dive back, that wasn't a worry... how would you adjust now?



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                       Q                             B   B

                       B


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Offline seeindouble

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 05:50:38 PM »
Not sure what the splits are but we would align below using our base rules:



  •   Versus a TREY (trips to the TE side), SAM adjusts out on number #2 and strong end aligns in a 7 or 6 technique.  Mike and Will slide to 00 and 40 (i've got M and W flipped above).



 JRrTitan, a several questions. What does 00 and 40 mean? I'm assuming 00 means an empty call by your defense, but I'm lost on the 40 part.
Also, do you adjust your DTs and SDE to even techs based on if the QB is a running threat?

Offline JrTitan

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 06:27:44 PM »
The tweaked version of this offensive formation gives us more fits when they keep a back in the backfield.... you still have a TRIPS effect, and still have two blockers on the backside (same as you would if there were a SE far to the left), but now you have to also worry about the dive play or the option pitch.  The defense right above this post is fine... but as soon as you put that dive back in backfield, it becomes weak off tackle.  Since the first version of the offense didn't have a dive back, that wasn't a worry... how would you adjust now?



====== E=T=C=G=G=T============E
                       Q                             B   B

                       B


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It's un unbalanced front so we would align our SAM on the TE on the weak side and slide the front.  Will adjusts out on #3 and Mike slides over:







"They call it coaching but it is teaching...You do not just tell them...you show them the reasons"

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“…you have no bad habits to break...We either coach it or are allowing allowing it to happen.”

Offline JrTitan

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2010, 06:33:27 PM »
JRrTitan, a several questions. What does 00 and 40 mean? I'm assuming 00 means an empty call by your defense, but I'm lost on the 40 part.
Also, do you adjust your DTs and SDE to even techs based on if the QB is a running threat?

00 and 40 are linebacker alignments.  00 is head up the center and 40 is head up the OT.  Same alignments as the defensive line except you add a zero.  We move our DTs around a lot depending if we are having problems controlling a gap.  If we think our DT is a better than the offensive lineman we will put him head up.  I showed the DE head up so we could two gap, but his primary responsibility is the C gap.



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"You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important."

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Offline seeindouble

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2010, 09:46:07 PM »
00 and 40 are linebacker alignments.  00 is head up the center and 40 is head up the OT.  Same alignments as the defensive line except you add a zero.  We move our DTs around a lot depending if we are having problems controlling a gap.  If we think our DT is a better than the offensive lineman we will put him head up.  I showed the DE head up so we could two gap, but his primary responsibility is the C gap.

Thanks, I know the LB techniques, I got your diagram and your adjustments mixed up.
And also, why is your Rover playing a 7tech, and Sam on the #2 receiver on the trips side, I thought your Sam played on the one receiver side in this situation? 

Offline JrTitan

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2010, 10:16:52 PM »
Thanks, I know the LB techniques, I got your diagram and your adjustments mixed up.
And also, why is your Rover playing a 7tech, and Sam on the #2 receiver on the trips side, I thought your Sam played on the one receiver side in this situation?

He is on the one receiver side if there is no TE.  Take a look at the formation for what it is:  a double tight pro formation with an empty backfield.  Set the front to the pro side and adjust the linebackers as the offense adjusts the backs out of the backfield.
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Offline KFMagee

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2010, 02:10:25 AM »

It's un unbalanced front so we would align our SAM on the TE on the weak side and slide the front.  Will adjusts out on #3 and Mike slides over:




Why would SAM be inside the DE on the backside?  Curious... seems like having the End on the TE allows more speed on the outside with Sam.  Just curious as to the thinking there...
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Offline JrTitan

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Re: Formations That You Don't Like to Defend
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2010, 07:46:24 AM »
Why would SAM be inside the DE on the backside?  Curious... seems like having the End on the TE allows more speed on the outside with Sam.  Just curious as to the thinking there...

In a base Split 4-4, the outside LBs are the C gap players and responsible for the TE in man coverage.  The defensive ends are responsible for squeezing the field outside in so we are not looking for a lot of speed off an edge.  We are looking for somebody who is disciplined to keep contain.
"They call it coaching but it is teaching...You do not just tell them...you show them the reasons"

"You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important."

“…you have no bad habits to break...We either coach it or are allowing allowing it to happen.”