Author Topic: No bear crawling allowed!  (Read 9348 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bigshel

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1471
  • Total likes: 173
  • Coaching: 9 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2014, 09:19:00 PM »
On offense Coach have you thought of running a wedge play?  If they do not want hitting below the waist then wedge would be nearly impossible to stop.

THIS!  Wedge would be a perfect call given the constraint on DL technique.  By the time coaches recognize and call wedge, the wedge is already rolling.

Offline DL

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 5022
  • Total likes: 113
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2014, 11:53:25 AM »
I'll bet the actual league rule just says "No bear crawling."

In that sense the intent was probably not to outlaw the 4 pt. stance, cutting a wedge or "root hogging".   

Not a bad rule because bear crawling is stupid and a crutch or half measure for coaches who either don't know better or simply don't want to work with small or unathletic kids on not getting driven back.

Bear crawling is ineffective as a tech ultimately.   Sooner or later most people figure that out.  I'll be honest I did it once with 2 really, really bad kids.   These were the 2 worst athletes in entire program - I got stuck with last 2 draft picks and they were beyond horrible - other coaches were laughing at me for getting saddled with both of them.  Don't ask how it worked out that way.       

I did it for those 2 games early in my coaching career and then I stopped when I realized I was teaching these two kids nothing having them do that.   By end of season those kids were contributing to best defense in the league.   They still sucked athletically, but they looked like football players and couldn't be ignored.   They even made some tackles.   i don't have MPP's so they were both full time starters - not kids I could funnel in and out for 8 plays in a game in non-crucial situations.   

It's only use is for keeping a really bad player from being pinballed into a stud LB thus 1 kid blocking 2, which is why I did it.   You can keep those kids low enough to keep that from happening without bear crawling.   

If I was running a league I might make the same rule.








Offline ZACH

  • Moderator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 10164
  • Total likes: 777
  • freedom of choice, not consequence - N. Saban
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 10-1
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2014, 12:12:54 PM »
I'll bet the actual league rule just says "No bear crawling."

In that sense the intent was probably not to outlaw the 4 pt. stance, cutting a wedge or "root hogging".   

Not a bad rule because bear crawling is stupid and a crutch or half measure for coaches who either don't know better or simply don't want to work with small or unathletic kids on not getting driven back.

Bear crawling is ineffective as a tech ultimately.   Sooner or later most people figure that out.  I'll be honest I did it once with 2 really, really bad kids.   These were the 2 worst athletes in entire program - I got stuck with last 2 draft picks and they were beyond horrible - other coaches were laughing at me for getting saddled with both of them.  Don't ask how it worked out that way.       

I did it for those 2 games early in my coaching career and then I stopped when I realized I was teaching these two kids nothing having them do that.   By end of season those kids were contributing to best defense in the league.   They still sucked athletically, but they looked like football players and couldn't be ignored.   They even made some tackles.   i don't have MPP's so they were both full time starters - not kids I could funnel in and out for 8 plays in a game in non-crucial situations.   

It's only use is for keeping a really bad player from being pinballed into a stud LB thus 1 kid blocking 2, which is why I did it.   You can keep those kids low enough to keep that from happening without bear crawling.   

If I was running a league I might make the same rule.

When my C grade player can essentially destroy the shin of the opposing B grade player and become an A grade player while making the opposition a D grade player...whats wrong with that?

Do me a favor and kick your kid in the shin twice... there wont be a second time and that foot will quickley move back...
"When a coach said hes going back to fundamentals it usually follows...I just got my butt kicked" - random

"Some athletes have division dreams and jv work ethic" - random

Offline DL

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 5022
  • Total likes: 113
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2014, 12:36:04 PM »
When my C grade player can essentially destroy the shin of the opposing B grade player and become an A grade player while making the opposition a D grade player...whats wrong with that?

Do me a favor and kick your kid in the shin twice... there wont be a second time and that foot will quickley move back...

You'll have to explain the tech to me.   Whatever it is, it isn't bear crawling.   

Are you hitting people at an angle or something?    I fail to see how you can get to my O lines shins head on unless I am slowest person on Earth and standing up.   

Not saying we couldn't be cut.   But a head on helmet or shoulder to shins would be bizarre.   A blindside shin hit would be possible from an angle.










 



 

Offline ZACH

  • Moderator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 10164
  • Total likes: 777
  • freedom of choice, not consequence - N. Saban
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 10-1
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 12:40:11 PM »
Bear crawling is lazy shin splitting

We are in a low 4 point stance ... chest is 6 inches off the ground low. The inside leg up back leg coiled slight back like a track block. On snap they are instructed to launch aiming the outside shoulder to the offensive linemans near shin before they continue to the backfield.
"When a coach said hes going back to fundamentals it usually follows...I just got my butt kicked" - random

"Some athletes have division dreams and jv work ethic" - random

Offline DL

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 5022
  • Total likes: 113
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2014, 01:14:17 PM »
Bear crawling is lazy shin splitting

We are in a low 4 point stance ... chest is 6 inches off the ground low. The inside leg up back leg coiled slight back like a track block. On snap they are instructed to launch aiming the outside shoulder to the offensive linemans near shin before they continue to the backfield.

Why wouldn't O linemen just lay down on top of them then and hold them down?  Seems like you are blocking yourself in a one for one trade.

Is this for tight splits?






Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9058
  • Total likes: 828
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2014, 02:35:23 PM »
Why wouldn't O linemen just lay down on top of them then and hold them down?  Seems like you are blocking yourself in a one for one trade.

Is this for tight splits?

Yes, we frog into gaps
Or we shin split-we have a tag we use to call it
Depends on the offense we are playing against and personnel issues

When they lay on you- that is a victory
You are trading a skill level 1 or 2 player for a skill level 5-8 player which is a great trade in non select youth football- which 85% of America Plays

Does it make sense for levels of play teams where you can send down your worst 25 kids? nah
When I coached select ball we ran a different defense

Does it make sense for a program that runs off all their legit MPRs?
Probably not

But for a lot of teams with their rules and how they run their programs and have legit MPRs on their team (bottom 15% of the league in athleticism) yes

ALL of those kids have positions on offense as well
They learn how to block and tackle the same way everyone else does
And on game day they add legitimate team value on every snap- they aren't just split out and not thrown the ball to on offense

« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 02:37:28 PM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline Michael

  • Diamond
  • Posts: 14277
  • Total likes: 2834
  • Coaching: 13 & Under
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Assistant
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2014, 02:41:39 PM »
When did the typical youth O-Lineman become skill level 5-8?
“If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself.” ― Albert Einstein

Offline ZACH

  • Moderator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 10164
  • Total likes: 777
  • freedom of choice, not consequence - N. Saban
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 10-1
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2014, 02:54:58 PM »
Why wouldn't O linemen just lay down on top of them then and hold them down?  Seems like you are blocking yourself in a one for one trade.

Is this for tight splits?

Ive done it for 4 seasons now... we have 70% rate of getting solid contact on the shin... what it does do is prevents the down block and reach.  Its keeps them low and explosive. This isnt a permanent technique. The wider the splits the more we try to beat the lineman by splitting the gap.

Would be easy to lay on them however if your close enough to lay on me i already hit your shin and youre pissed.

The technique of getting upright after the shin split is the trickiest.
"When a coach said hes going back to fundamentals it usually follows...I just got my butt kicked" - random

"Some athletes have division dreams and jv work ethic" - random

Offline DL

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 5022
  • Total likes: 113
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2014, 04:01:35 PM »
Yes, we frog into gaps
Or we shin split-we have a tag we use to call it
Depends on the offense we are playing against and personnel issues

When they lay on you- that is a victory
You are trading a skill level 1 or 2 player for a skill level 5-8 player which is a great trade in non select youth football- which 85% of America Plays

Does it make sense for levels of play teams where you can send down your worst 25 kids? nah
When I coached select ball we ran a different defense

Does it make sense for a program that runs off all their legit MPRs?
Probably not

But for a lot of teams with their rules and how they run their programs and have legit MPRs on their team (bottom 15% of the league in athleticism) yes

ALL of those kids have positions on offense as well
They learn how to block and tackle the same way everyone else does
And on game day they add legitimate team value on every snap- they aren't just split out and not thrown the ball to on offense

I thought the majority here always says put best 11 on defense?   Because a bad play on offense is just a lost down and a bad play on defense means 6 pts.   Pretty sure the worst players aren't going to be in offensive backfield, so that leaves most of worst players on O line, no?

I don't know why a 1 on 1 total victory for an O linemen is a victory for the defense.   You won't convince me of that.   

I don't believe Zach believes that or is arguing that. 

An O linemen's job is to defeat 1 guy.   Who would expect an O linemen to defeat 2 defenders?   In fact an axiom that I constantly tell them is if they try to block 2 guys you invariably end up blocking none.   

D linemen on the other hand can win by either defeating their guy  or taking up 2 O linemen.

A 1 for 1 trade is a waste defensively in my opinion.   However, I'll take a 2 for 1 trade any day of the week.   Select team or no.   

Are you telling me when teams play you their game plan is for their stud O linemen to completely bypass your poor defensive linemen and attack your better players?     But you foil them by laying down underneath them?








Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9058
  • Total likes: 828
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2014, 04:34:42 PM »
I realize you coach in a select league- you pass along all of your weakest players down to the B team
85% of youth teams aren't able to do that

Same goes for playing in a weighted league- IIRC you aren't unlimited weight so you don't have big mismatches in weight that the majority of the leagues play in- unlimited weight have.

Im not sure everyone puts their very worst kids on O-line
Seems like many here on this forum profess to have great athletes on the oline who can all play great one on one in space. They either have no MPRs or they split them out and hope someone covers them  ::) ::)

In many offenses, the better olinemen are the Guards and Center
The STARTERS are usually between a skill level 5-8
That's the case for our C and RG for sure

So if I can trade a 5-8 for a 1-2 straight up one for one- Im taking that every day of the week
I will GLADLY play 9 vs 9 football with the remainder
If all else is equal- then Im going to have better quality with the remaining equation

In actuality when we frog into both A gaps- often times we can get teams to use 3 to block 2- that's a real win/win
We get a composite say 17-19 against a composite 3-4, that's a winning trade off in my book

If I can plug a gap and keep those better Olinemen off of my linebackers- my teams are going to win a lot of those games

Personally I don't put all of my MPRs on offense and none on defense like you suggest
That puts a lot of pressure on the defense, with lots of 3 and outs. Takes a lot longer for the MPRs to get their snaps that way IMO- not a fan.
I also like giving those weaker kids a position on both sides of the ball and give them a chance to make a tackle instead of splitting them out and not throwing them the ball

The shin splitting tech was instrumental in us winning a 31 team age bracket last year
The other team had a MONSTER at G- he was huge and fast. IIRC at 4th grade about 5' 8" and 155 lbs and he was probably their best athlete- 3-4th fastest kid on their team. We doubled him on offense and on D we shin split him with our best MPR who was probably a skill level 3 or so- the big kid was a skill level 10. That approach kept him off our better players, our LBs and created a bit of a pile at the LOS or an impediment to the ball carrier. Worked for well us.

We don't lie beneath anyone purposely
We make contact with their legs and many times they topple over the top or at times the defender will get aggravated and in an attempt to keep the frogger from continuing to penetrate- lay on top of the frogger. It happens.

Over time- when most teams have blasted all their MPRs out- we still have them, they haven't quit. When you have 95+% retention rates, which is our goal, it creates some challenges of their own that other programs don't have to deal with. Select teams certainly don't have to deal with it. I was President of a program that had Select teams and coached select, I know the deal.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline ZACH

  • Moderator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 10164
  • Total likes: 777
  • freedom of choice, not consequence - N. Saban
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 10-1
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2014, 05:37:28 PM »
I thought the majority here always says put best 11 on defense?   Because a bad play on offense is just a lost down and a bad play on defense means 6 pts.   Pretty sure the worst players aren't going to be in offensive backfield, so that leaves most of worst players on O line, no?

I don't know why a 1 on 1 total victory for an O linemen is a victory for the defense.   You won't convince me of that.   

I don't believe Zach believes that or is arguing that. 

An O linemen's job is to defeat 1 guy.   Who would expect an O linemen to defeat 2 defenders?   In fact an axiom that I constantly tell them is if they try to block 2 guys you invariably end up blocking none.   

D linemen on the other hand can win by either defeating their guy  or taking up 2 O linemen.

A 1 for 1 trade is a waste defensively in my opinion.   However, I'll take a 2 for 1 trade any day of the week.   Select team or no.   

Are you telling me when teams play you their game plan is for their stud O linemen to completely bypass your poor defensive linemen and attack your better players?     But you foil them by laying down underneath them?

In a perfect world ide love to see a shin split. With penetration in the backfield... real world application i get either one or the other with maybe 15% of snaps someone does both thats why we have designed rushed calls. Guys laying in gaps means the gap is filled or atleast trashed to a point you dont wanna run there... a pile up solidifies that...i beleive thats a victory for the def...we maintained a gap and kept a lineman off second level players. Im ok with that... would i want more sure...but normall after pain in the shins we have easier time speed rushing... the fact we rotate our gappers helps aswell
"When a coach said hes going back to fundamentals it usually follows...I just got my butt kicked" - random

"Some athletes have division dreams and jv work ethic" - random

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 23862
  • Total likes: 2263
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 7 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2014, 06:01:29 PM »
IF you want to see some good comedy....go to 1:10 of this film and watch this Teams ROG for the next 4 plays.

This is why you DO NOT play minimums on the DL. This Team is a 3rd grade Spring Team from 2012. A friend of mine coaches the team in Black. #58....ROG with the Navy Blue helmet is probably the best OLM in our entire Age Group.

You aint bear crawling him either...he will hurt you. We played his Fall Team once. Kid is just absolutely flippin' NASTY. We Gilbert Brown'd him while he was on D in the hopes that he would be too exhausted when on O. That worked...after a while.

Granted the opponent in this film is way out manned but so are 99% of all MP's...where ever you happen to play them.  Its why they are MP's.

http://www.hudl.com/athlete/1897816/highlights/51782595
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline HCScott

  • Copper
  • Posts: 363
  • Total likes: 38
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2014, 02:04:14 AM »
I thought the majority here always says put best 11 on defense?   Because a bad play on offense is just a lost down and a bad play on defense means 6 pts.   Pretty sure the worst players aren't going to be in offensive backfield, so that leaves most of worst players on O line, no?

I don't know why a 1 on 1 total victory for an O linemen is a victory for the defense.   You won't convince me of that.   

I don't believe Zach believes that or is arguing that. 

An O linemen's job is to defeat 1 guy.   Who would expect an O linemen to defeat 2 defenders?   In fact an axiom that I constantly tell them is if they try to block 2 guys you invariably end up blocking none.   

D linemen on the other hand can win by either defeating their guy  or taking up 2 O linemen.

A 1 for 1 trade is a waste defensively in my opinion.   However, I'll take a 2 for 1 trade any day of the week.   Select team or no.   

Are you telling me when teams play you their game plan is for their stud O linemen to completely bypass your poor defensive linemen and attack your better players?     But you foil them by laying down underneath them?

My A gappers usually force the center and both guards to get tied up, that's 2 for 3 and since their 3 are usually their best linemen that's a heck of a trade when my 2 A gappers  are backups. Lots of times they beat the blocks and are right into the backfield, surprise, surprise!
"The quarterback must go down and he must go down hard"

Offline TenaciousDad

  • Copper
  • Posts: 6
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Stack
  • Offense: Undecided
  • Title: Other
Re: No bear crawling allowed!
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2014, 11:35:35 AM »
All good stuff. So back to the original question: no shin splitting, bear crawling, initiated contact below the knee, can I effectively run the 10-1/GAM?