Author Topic: First Scrimmage today - 1st year DCWT - mixed results- 23/24 problems -  (Read 516 times)

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Offline grimeball

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Had our first scrimmage today.  I will try and post some tape for more feedback.  However, it was at an elementary school and the angle will be from the endzone with our offense on the far side.  Won't be the best viewing angle.

Coach a 12U B team.  Due to summer vacations, we are without our 2 best backs, and 1 of our best lineman.  Scrimmaged with 14 players today.  3 of them are complete MPP's And 1 player who is a first year player with some ability but this was his first game like experience.  The rest are 2nd or more players, but this is a new offense where we ran DCBSW last year.  Also, due to our Counties "safety first" initiatives (reaction in response to Maryland trying to pass a bill to ban youth football due to concussions concerns that failed, but trying to do "something"), in addition to 3 days of heat acclimation with no pads, we had 2 days with helmets only and 2 days helmets/shoulder pads.  We had 2 days with full pads to have contact and devoted most of the time towards tackling drills and defense skills (defense wins championships).  Offense install was done without pads/contact.  Our backs are way ahead of the line in terms of skills.  Need to have a lot of Oline Group time to incorporate a lot of the oline schemes as we've installed basic oline GOL technique, maxi, mini, Trap.

Asked our 3 FB's to arrive to the field 30 minutes before the rest of the team to do FB training drills (forward lean under PVC pipe  and shoulder pad to helmet drills).  Due to limited size of the team in the summer, this was the first time really working 2 of them out at FB and wanted to see how the FB's did in a scrimmage to decide on depth chart.  Good  news is we found a FB today.

Overall, I feel OK about the prospects of the team.  But we had significant problems with 23/24 today.  I think new FB's, combined with limited playbook to taks advantage of what the defense gave us, and an o line that I haven't been able to install may blocking assignments beyond the basics caused our issues.

As you can see, a very limited playbook and even more limited o line scheme.  The plays we have installed are:
23/24
Maxi 33 Quick Trap
17 Power
40 Quick
47 Toss - without pulling guard
a few reps of Freeze Rocket 38 Power - but without pulling guard/tackle
Pass right 1/2
Pass Left 1/3

My SE's haven't learned to catch yet.  They can run the routes on Pass left/pass right though.


We are non-option.  I am the OC.  The HC is toss/option adverse but willing to let me practice tosses to show him we can make it work. 

Today, the problem we had was the DE taking a straight line at the FB and meeting him at the handoff.  They were clearly taught on both sides to take an angle at the deepest back. Again, we are non-option and would reasonably expect to face this a lot in the upcoming season as DE would either attack deepest back or box.  Based on past years in our league, we know we will face a lot of "deepest back" attacks.  Again, we are non option.

Here was the alignment of the defense.  Not sure really what to call this.

             A         B               C            D

       F          E     x     x      x        E         F
       5               o   o  0  o   o     6   
                                1                           4

                         3
                                2

Cover 0, NG over the center, DT's in 3 tech or closer to inside shade of OT's, DE's in 9, CB's (F)  on the line.  4 LB's with 2 in 40 tech and 2 out wide.

I saw this and knew we had 5 in the box and we were outnumbered out wide 3-1 on the SE side and 3-2 on TE side.  So I wanted to run the middle and motion/formation to the right to even numbers.  However, just didn't have the plays installed to really take advantage.  33 Quick was a struggle as we hadn't put in the AA block.  40 Quick should have been better but need to look at the tape to see why we didn't make better yards.  I called twice...once for 0 yards and once for 3 yards.  We didn't have other plays to really take advantage of the middle yet.

That said, we really struggled with 23/24. 

On 23 for the base call, The left E attacked straight at the 2.  The LT blocked the 3 tech following the GOL rule.  3 went to B.  E came in untouched.  I tried to adjust by having the 3 hit E, but B came forward to tackle for no gain.  B was 3 yards off the ball and met 2 at the LOS.  For 17 Power, 2 would block E, 3 would block B, 4 would motion and block F.  A came up and made the play or QB would make a move and get 7-10 yards. On 47 Toss, the QB was going to A, 2 to E, 3 to B.  5 is an MPP and generally ineffective.  F was making a play or slowing things down enough to allow backside pursuit to make tackles for minimal gains.  We did get 7-10 yards 2-3 times.  Remember - I haven't put in guard pulling for Toss yet. 

What adjustments would be made for 23 here?  I will say below what we did today, and what I want to install to make 23 work if I see a similar front in the future.  Lastly, I will say what plays that are in my installation plan to run against this type of look but just haven't had time yet to install.  Looking for feedback on my thoughts below as well as what I may be missing.  As I said in the subject, 1st year DCWT so looking for feedback on understanding of the offense/manual.  After discussion here with others on the board, I talk about 24.

Given this was a controlled practice scrimmage, I was on the field standing behind the offense so could talk to the offense after each play in the huddle.

What I did today was change to 25 Power on the field and told the 4 to motion to kick out the E.  When we did this, we got consistent 5-10 yards.  This is why I was happy overall with our results today and saw we would be able to be successful.  In addition, we had several plays go for 7-10 yards (47 toss/17 power) so encouraged by a number of things.  However, that's 25 Power and not 23.  To prevent the tell, I also threw in WB Over on the field to run 23 from WBO and have the 4 kick the E without motion.  This worked too. 

Things to make 23 work here:

Cross  - This was the call here and I knew it.  My LG is a beast, but not the sharpest tool in the shed.  We haven't done cross blocking in practice and didn't want to risk confusing the LG.  Even though not an even front, I think this would have worked like a charm.  G/T cross and 3 to B.  I bet my 2 could get 5 yards on that and maybe go all the way.

Slot - Widen out the DE another yard and maybe get the play off.  I didn't think of this on the field and instead went with WB Over.

23 Lead

Freeze Read 23 Lead


Anything else for 23?

Other plays I plan to install that I expect to work well against the defense.

Maxi 20 Midline Trap - This was the play I will be crying myself to sleep tonight for not having in the playbook.  I can't see how that isn't a TD waiting to happen anytime I want.

Left 32 Trap

Right 65 kick

Right 45

21 Counter/22 Counter

30 Quick

I tried running a pass left 3, but need to work on QB getting depth and o line blocking.  The Post was open, but QB never had a chance to set to throw as he wasn't deep and FB didn't sell fake.  They saw pass the whole way.


At our "halftime", we installed a Mini QB wedge Sweep.  Ran twice and got 5 and 3 yards.  Pretty happy with that consider we had't repped wedge in practice.  Most of my line was with me last year when we ran DCUBSW.

So coaches...besides 20 midline and the other plays above....what plays are screaming to be run against the defense above?
   

 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 10:21:01 PM by grimeball »

Offline CoachBrian

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38 Power Toss
QB Wedge
Super Power Wedge
Backs Over 26 Power
WB Over 25 Power
Trips QB Wedge

I know you said it, but really.....20 Midline Trap will kill that defense.

Offline headtrip

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As you said, slot may work to keep the DE from making the tackle, but running 23 to a reduced front is tough going. They have 3 defenders to your 2 blockers, and they're lined up right where you want to run. 

25 power brings an extra blocker as does TE over and WB over. If the DE is making plays inside like that, it seems like 47 should go for big gains. Belly sweep off of 23 would probably open 23 back up without having to add an extra blocker.

Offline Coach E

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I don't have a lot of experience here, but by what I've seen and read, here is my .02 worth...

23 Lead and 20 Midline, as you said.
Pass left #0 to the WB in orbit motion.
Not sure what you would call it, but fake the 33 Quick and follow directly behind the HB (Fake 33 Quick, 13 Lead?)

Besides what others have mentioned, work on things you've already identified: better FB fakes, pulling linemen, Cross cue.

How fast are your FBs hitting the hole?
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Offline DumCoach

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The offensive concept is to go outside with the "4" back if the DE crashes on "23".  This is usually done with "47 Speed", "47 Option", "47 Toss", "Pass Left Zero Open".

However, I don't think those F's are in pass coverage.  They look like "sweep first" pass second.  A and D look like they're actually providing the pass coverage and they have confidence you can't pass.  This could be a major pain.   

"Slot 23 Cross" would have been your short term solution while telling SE to block A.  HB now has B.  You run it from Slot to prevent the HB from running into the crossing LG.  Occasionally, you would call "Slot on 23 Cross" to prevent the defense from reading your HB and knowing "23" is coming. 

Another temporary solution is "23 Lead" where FB runs "23", QB fakes the hand off, keeps and lets DE and FB take each other out.  However, I doubt your QB is a runner.     

Your longer term solutions must include the F's.  They're out there in the "7" hole for all those "4" back plays and they will be hard to block.  You must do something about this right now.    Otherwise your HC will do something about it for you.  HC may tell SE to block F.  Tough block to hold and now no one has A. 

Without film, I'd say those F's are MPP's just standing in the way sweep.  I have to know what they are to provide the fix.

On "24" let's whoop A$$.
Just call "36 Sweep".

"Sweep" tells the TE to block out on E and for FB to lead though and block D.  #4 back takes C.  RT has DT.  Key to the play is that HB must run 2 steps flat past the QB before turning into the hole.  If he doesn't, he'll pass too close to RT and end up running straight at D.

You can also call "FB on, 36".  This puts FB where TE normally is and TE further out which moves E further out.  FB blocks E and TE has D.  Or you can "sweep" block it again and TE has E and FB has C.  Either way, HB is running through a BIG HOLE.

"FB On" is not your only formation call but it's a good one because the defense does not know how to adjust.  Another one they will have problems with is "WB Over".  Lots of opportunities here.
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Offline grimeball

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The offensive concept is to go outside with the "4" back if the DE crashes on "23".  This is usually done with "47 Speed", "47 Option", "47 Toss", "Pass Left Zero Open".

However, I don't think those F's are in pass coverage.  They look like "sweep first" pass second.  A and D look like they're actually providing the pass coverage and they have confidence you can't pass.  This could be a major pain.   

"Slot 23 Cross" would have been your short term solution while telling SE to block A.  HB now has B.  You run it from Slot to prevent the HB from running into the crossing LG.  Occasionally, you would call "Slot on 23 Cross" to prevent the defense from reading your HB and knowing "23" is coming. 

Another temporary solution is "23 Lead" where FB runs "23", QB fakes the hand off, keeps and lets DE and FB take each other out.  However, I doubt your QB is a runner.     

Your longer term solutions must include the F's.  They're out there in the "7" hole for all those "4" back plays and they will be hard to block.  You must do something about this right now.    Otherwise your HC will do something about it for you.  HC may tell SE to block F.  Tough block to hold and now no one has A. 

Without film, I'd say those F's are MPP's just standing in the way sweep.  I have to know what they are to provide the fix.

On "24" let's whoop A$$.
Just call "36 Sweep".

"Sweep" tells the TE to block out on E and for FB to lead though and block D.  #4 back takes C.  RT has DT.  Key to the play is that HB must run 2 steps flat past the QB before turning into the hole.  If he doesn't, he'll pass too close to RT and end up running straight at D.

You can also call "FB on, 36".  This puts FB where TE normally is and TE further out which moves E further out.  FB blocks E and TE has D.  Or you can "sweep" block it again and TE has E and FB has C.  Either way, HB is running through a BIG HOLE.

"FB On" is not your only formation call but it's a good one because the defense does not know how to adjust.  Another one they will have problems with is "WB Over".  Lots of opportunities here.

Thanks DC and other that have replied.  I didn't list 36 above as a play I knew would work but it was in text messages I sent the HC highlighting the challenges of limited plays, new FB's that had 30 minutes of practice, and an O line that hasn't had time in pads to focus on blocking techniques. 

The HC is OK as we had a first scrimmage last year with 1 day in pads and we were running DCUBSW.  On the first scrimmage, we only had 5 plays installed as well and really struggled.  We ended being the 2nd highest scoring team in the league.  So definitely no panic or loss of confidence, rather recognizing it's a process and takes time to get an offense put in.  This is my 4th year coaching with this HC so we have a pretty good rapport.

To answer the questions about F.  The one on the right side of our offense was an MPP type.  The one on the left was a solid player, but could get sucked in.

We got a couple 17 Power and 47 Toss outside him because he sucked in and got a helmet on him.  But he also did get in for about 3-4 tackles.  The F on the right didn't do anything.

The 4 best tacklers were the 2 E's and B/C.  A, D, left F were comparable. 

FB On for 36 looks good. 

Saw lots of things when I could review the tape. 

- False steps from FB
- WB motion not fast enough
- FB waiting for handoff instead of meeting QB over 3/4 hole
- TE jogging on post routes so couldn't tell if the coverage was staying with him on plays to the left (IE he would jog about 5 yards downfield.  So couldn't tell if anybody would stay with him to know if #3 was open.

Planning for tons of rabbit and finger drills this week.  That was the biggest thing for the backs.

For the line, need basic blocking repititions and enforcement of GOL rule.  Only 1 player was releasing to LB's to block.  The rest would stand up and look around if they didn't have a block.  The 1 who was releasing (LT) wasn't scraping hips. 

Felt OK after the scrimmage.  Feel even better after watching the tape.  The problems are fixable and haven't put in the plays to take advantage of what the defense was giving us.

One question on Toss plays.  Looked through manual last night but didn't see this clearly stated.  On 47 Toss, where is the WB when the toss is made and how deep?

Is WB the depth of the FB or deeper?  Or the HB depth?  Is he over the RT/RG when the toss is made or in front of the QB over the LG/LT.

I think he should be over the RT to allow the QB time to finish pivot and lead block.  But the HC has the opinion it should be more like a Rocket toss and over the LG/LT to get outside faster.

Offline Majortom

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coach, I tried the toss both ways with different QB's. (these are mostly 8yr olds) and really did not have the athleticsm or coaching time to get the QB out in front of the tosses so I am moving 38/47 Tosses to be wider and go without expecting the QB block. For now I will just have him try to cutoff anything pursuing thru the line and maybe get to the 6 hole.
I still have the 36 toss in but may get away from it and make that play a 36sweep and no QB block. Then I would have to decide if I want the handoff for 36sweep such that the QB could boot away. (even more coaching)
Thoughts.?
Tom
13th year youth coach 7-13yr olds

Offline DumCoach

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DCWT is actually designed for non-blocking QB's.  As long as he's fast, he doesn't have to block anybody. 

Here's how an outside (38/47) toss works.  Whoever is getting the ball runs at the FB.  Snap is made about one yard short of QB or pretty much the same as "47 Speed". 

QB runs as fast as he can to get out ahead.  If he had the ball he would cross the goal line 5 yards inside the flag.  He should intend to cross the goal line versus make a block (Although he can try.).

Runner keeps about 6 inches inside the QB and 3 yards behind him.  This forces defenders to RUN ACROSS THE QB's FACE to make the tackle.  The moment the runner sees a defender trying to cross QB's face, HE CUTS BACK INSIDE.  If the defender doesn't try and cross QB's face the runner just keeps going.

It's pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for the defender to arrive to make the tackle whether QB blocks him or not.  If he doesn't cross QB's face, QB is in the way whether he makes the block or not.  If he attempts to cross QB's face it is IMPOSSIBLE to defend cutback.  Your runner should always get past QB's man (Maybe nobody else but at least him!).

Again, no need for QB to make a block.  Just run for the end zone 5 yards inside the flag, FULL SPEED.  Maintain a straight line course for that spot.  He's literally trying to score.   
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Offline TigerMOJO

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We have a Slow Dozer QB. So he can't lead on Toss. What would you do with him DC? I do have KEEP off of 23 and 24.
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Offline joshv155

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Here was the alignment of the defense.  Not sure really what to call this.

             A         B               C            D

       F          E     x     x      x        E         F
       5               o   o  0  o   o     6   
                                1                           4

                         3
                                2



Run where they ain't. I'll try and hit on what others have not. First off I would tell my TE to widen out another step and see if that takes the E out further. Shouldn't meet at the hand off point then. Even so, run 16. Don't even have to put the ball out for the FB. That DE is so focused on him as long as he acts like he has the ball your QB should be around the corner without a problem.

Slot Over 24. Have a call to alert your HB he is kicking out the DE. He should be off the ball enough that the WB goes in front of him then he goes behind to kick out the DE.

FB On, WB over 24 (really 26) power.

 FB on TE/FB cross block. TE gets C, FB gets E, WB tracks to D.

Don't let that DE know who is coming to block him, so instead of focusing on the backfield he is wondering who he needs to shed to get into the backfield.

Just saw that these are 8 years olds. Okay.....I am guessing those F's don't move if you come out in a different formation. Here is what I would do: Backs over slot 26 power. HB to C, WB kick out the DE, TE to D.

To the other side 25 Power. 25/26 power is essentially 23/24 and is for the problems you are facing. Don't bang your head against the wall trying to force a play to work.

WEDGE !!! All day. Get great at it.

I'd add more but these are 8 year olds.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:48:30 AM by joshv155 »
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Offline grimeball

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Run where they ain't. I'll try and hit on what others have not. First off I would tell my TE to widen out another step and see if that takes the E out further. Shouldn't meet at the hand off point then. Even so, run 16. Don't even have to put the ball out for the FB. That DE is so focused on him as long as he acts like he has the ball your QB should be around the corner without a problem.

Slot Over 24. Have a call to alert your HB he is kicking out the DE. He should be off the ball enough that the WB goes in front of him then he goes behind to kick out the DE.

FB On, WB over 24 (really 26) power.

 FB on TE/FB cross block. TE gets C, FB gets E, WB tracks to D.

Don't let that DE know who is coming to block him, so instead of focusing on the backfield he is wondering who he needs to shed to get into the backfield.

Just saw that these are 8 years olds. Okay.....I am guessing those F's don't move if you come out in a different formation. Here is what I would do: Backs over slot 26 power. HB to C, WB kick out the DE, TE to D.

To the other side 25 Power. 25/26 power is essentially 23/24 and is for the problems you are facing. Don't bang your head against the wall trying to force a play to work.

WEDGE !!! All day. Get great at it.

I'd add more but these are 8 year olds.

Not sure where 8 year olds came from.  This is 12 year olds.  12U

Slot Over...HB 1x1 off the TE?

Offline DumCoach

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We have a Slow Dozer QB. So he can't lead on Toss. What would you do with him DC? I do have KEEP off of 23 and 24.

A dozer is assigned to block a corner out on "36 Toss".  Most don't run "38" at all as not only would he miss the block but possibly get you a clipping call. 

On "38" I'd have a dozer turn back into the middle once outside and target whoever is closest to being the FS.  All my QB's were little so I don't have experience here.  As a guess I'd run it as  "38 Power Option Toss" and WB will crack DE, FB take corner, and let the QB and LG turn inside for FS.  FB should blast that corner into next week.  HB stays close enough behind FB to pick his wallet so that corner can't try and dodge FB.
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Offline grimeball

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FB On, WB over 24 (really 26) power.

 FB on TE/FB cross block. TE gets C, FB gets E, WB tracks to D.

Don't let that DE know who is coming to block him, so instead of focusing on the backfield he is wondering who he needs to shed to get into the backfield.



 how does "FB On 24" work?  FB Yo-Yo back for the handoff.  :)