Author Topic: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen  (Read 3954 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DumCoach

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9687
  • Total likes: 568
  • "What me worry? I'm not far enough behind yet!"
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: DC Wing T
The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« on: August 11, 2011, 02:33:33 PM »
When I get sent video by DCWT coaches, the most common mistake I see is almost always someone has put the SE out at 10 yards.  "TV" football leads us to think the formation should look like this:



                O                  O  O  0  O  O   O 
                                             O                   O

                                    O      O

And not like this:


                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O

The SE is not out there to catch a pass.  He's out there to get a block on a safety.  Here's his blocking angle versus Cover 2:

                                   WS                 SS


                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O

And here it is versus Cover 1:

                                           S


                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O

If you move the SE (typically 4 yards outside the LT) out to 10 yards, he now has 6 yards farther to go to block the safety.  He'll never make his safety block on "23".  The safety can now ALWAYS make the tackle.

It does not matter that the SE brings the corner in with him.   If the corner comes over with the SE, he's in conflict.  Does he cover the SE or tackle the FB on "23"?  He can't do both.  If the SE blocks the safety on "23" and the corner makes the tackle, you still made 5 yards.  But now you can run "Pass Left #2" and the SE should be open for 10 yards. This is built right into the SE's pass route.  If the corner is looking for the "23", he's going to see the "45" handoff on the THIRD STEP of the play.  It's on the THIRD STEP of the play that the SE turns outside off his track block to the safety.  This is deliberate.   When the corner sees the QB pull the ball back, the SE is now behind him and outside his vision.

Even if the corner now realizes it's a pass, he will to his left for the SE.  Why?  Because he last saw the SE moving to his left.  Once he starts to turn left, with SE behind him and going to his right, the corner must turn 270 degrees to find the SE.  This is known as "turning the defender around".  The corner will be late in getting back into coverage.

How well does it work? Has anyone here had "Pass Left #2" intercepted?  If not, it works very well.

It's also possible that "Pass Right #3" will be open if the corner doesn't follow the SE.

So, if you put your SE at 4 yards, you conflict the corner.  If you put him at 10 yards, you don't, and now the safety is free to make the tackle on "23" with no conflict at all.

Let's put the SE at 10 yards now and run "Pass Left #2".  The corner is no longer looking for "23/45" from that far out.  He can watch and cover the SE on his route and the QB has to throw an additional 6 yards farther.  Pass intercepted.

So now you have screwed your offense THREE DIFFERENT WAYS:  Your FB is being tackled by the safety.  The corner is no longer in conflict and you can no longer pass to the SE.

But you have just begun to screw up the offense.  You will screw it up five more different ways.  They are:

47 Speed:  The LT must run an extra 6 yards to make his block on the corner.  He's an LT, not a running back.  So now you have to put the SE on the corner to block him.  But no SE can hold a block for the 15 yards it takes for the WB to get there.  So now "47 Speed", the best play in the playbook, is now just as screwed up as "23", the second best play in the playbook.

Fake Speed 56 Reverse Sweep: With an SE 10 yards out, you might as well throw this play in the garbage can.  It's designed so the WB and SE will mesh behind the HB's block on the DE.  With their two bodies in front of the reverse handoff, it make it hard for the defense to see the reverse take place.  That won't happen if the SE is 10 yards out.  The reverse will take place past the DE and everybody on the defense will SEE IT.  And now you've given the SE 6 more yards to run to reach the 6 hole and 6 more yards for the defense to turn around.  You have screwed up another TD play.  You should score 8x a season on this play.  Put the SE at 10 and you'll be lucky to score twice.  Some of you may also run the play where the WB fakes the reverse to the SE and keeps going.  This works real nice when the fake takes place behind the HB's block on the DE.  But now the offense can see the fake when it's past the defense.  Another TD play screwed up.

Left 56 Sweep:  The SE will reach the reverse handoff point in 5 steps from 4 yards outside the LT.  The fake handoff to the FB on "23" takes place on the third step, allowing the QB two steps to get the ball to the SE.  That's a FAST reverse.  You run it to an SE 10 yards out and the QB is going to be standing there waiting and waiting for him to arrive and, of course, SE has to run 6 more yards to hit the "6" hole (Meaning the right side of the line must hold their blocks longer.).  Another great play screwed up. 

Left 58 Power:  Same problems as above only now the WB must hold his crack back longer for SE to run 6 more yards to get past the DE.  Another great play screwed up.

Wedge Pass to the QB:  A great play because nobody ever covers the QB.  Only now the SE has to run 6 more yards to throw to him.  Will the wedge be more than 3 yards downfield (penalty)?  Will the SE be sacked by the DE's for getting there so late?  Another TD play flushed down the toilet.

There are only two plays where the SE widens (and then only by 2 steps) and they are "Quick Pass to the SE" (also "Hitch and lateral") and "57 Power Screen".  Otherwise, you're just shooting your own foot to do it.     
 
                               
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline lost episodes

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1667
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 02:57:10 PM »
When I get sent video by DCWT coaches, the most common mistake I see is almost always someone has put the SE out at 10 yards.  "TV" football leads us to think the formation should look like this:



                O                  O  O  0  O  O   O 
                                             O                   O

                                    O      O

And not like this:


                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O

The SE is not out there to catch a pass.  He's out there to get a block on a safety.  Here's his blocking angle versus Cover 2:

                                   WS                 SS


                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O

And here it is versus Cover 1:

                                           S


                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O

If you move the SE (typically 4 yards outside the LT) out to 10 yards, he now has 6 yards farther to go to block the safety.  He'll never make his safety block on "23".  The safety can now ALWAYS make the tackle.

It does not matter that the SE brings the corner in with him.   If the corner comes over with the SE, he's in conflict.  Does he cover the SE or tackle the FB on "23"?  He can't do both.  If the SE blocks the safety on "23" and the corner makes the tackle, you still made 5 yards.  But now you can run "Pass Left #2" and the SE should be open for 10 yards. This is built right into the SE's pass route.  If the corner is looking for the "23", he's going to see the "45" handoff on the THIRD STEP of the play.  It's on the THIRD STEP of the play that the SE turns outside off his track block to the safety.  This is deliberate.   When the corner sees the QB pull the ball back, the SE is now behind him and outside his vision.

Even if the corner now realizes it's a pass, he will to his left for the SE.  Why?  Because he last saw the SE moving to his left.  Once he starts to turn left, with SE behind him and going to his right, the corner must turn 270 degrees to find the SE.  This is known as "turning the defender around".  The corner will be late in getting back into coverage.

How well does it work? Has anyone here had "Pass Left #2" intercepted?  If not, it works very well.

It's also possible that "Pass Right #3" will be open if the corner doesn't follow the SE.

So, if you put your SE at 4 yards, you conflict the corner.  If you put him at 10 yards, you don't, and now the safety is free to make the tackle on "23" with no conflict at all.

Let's put the SE at 10 yards now and run "Pass Left #2".  The corner is no longer looking for "23/45" from that far out.  He can watch and cover the SE on his route and the QB has to throw an additional 6 yards farther.  Pass intercepted.

So now you have screwed your offense THREE DIFFERENT WAYS:  Your FB is being tackled by the safety.  The corner is no longer in conflict and you can no longer pass to the SE.

But you have just begun to screw up the offense.  You will screw it up five more different ways.  They are:

47 Speed:  The LT must run an extra 6 yards to make his block on the corner.  He's an LT, not a running back.  So now you have to put the SE on the corner to block him.  But no SE can hold a block for the 15 yards it takes for the WB to get there.  So now "47 Speed", the best play in the playbook, is now just as screwed up as "23", the second best play in the playbook.

Fake Speed 56 Reverse Sweep: With an SE 10 yards out, you might as well throw this play in the garbage can.  It's designed so the WB and SE will mesh behind the HB's block on the DE.  With their two bodies in front of the reverse handoff, it make it hard for the defense to see the reverse take place.  That won't happen if the SE is 10 yards out.  The reverse will take place past the DE and everybody on the defense will SEE IT.  And now you've given the SE 6 more yards to run to reach the 6 hole and 6 more yards for the defense to turn around.  You have screwed up another TD play.  You should score 8x a season on this play.  Put the SE at 10 and you'll be lucky to score twice.  Some of you may also run the play where the WB fakes the reverse to the SE and keeps going.  This works real nice when the fake takes place behind the HB's block on the DE.  But now the offense can see the fake when it's past the defense.  Another TD play screwed up.

Left 56 Sweep:  The SE will reach the reverse handoff point in 5 steps from 4 yards outside the LT.  The fake handoff to the FB on "23" takes place on the third step, allowing the QB two steps to get the ball to the SE.  That's a FAST reverse.  You run it to an SE 10 yards out and the QB is going to be standing there waiting and waiting for him to arrive and, of course, SE has to run 6 more yards to hit the "6" hole (Meaning the right side of the line must hold their blocks longer.).  Another great play screwed up. 

Left 58 Power:  Same problems as above only now the WB must hold his crack back longer for SE to run 6 more yards to get past the DE.  Another great play screwed up.

Wedge Pass to the QB:  A great play because nobody ever covers the QB.  Only now the SE has to run 6 more yards to throw to him.  Will the wedge be more than 3 yards downfield (penalty)?  Will the SE be sacked by the DE's for getting there so late?  Another TD play flushed down the toilet.

There are only two plays where the SE widens (and then only by 2 steps) and they are "Quick Pass to the SE" (also "Hitch and lateral") and "57 Power Screen".  Otherwise, you're just shooting your own foot to do it.     
 
                             
The Pro way, what you are saying is making the CR take the inside shoulder of the SE correct now can't SE can't get to S

    CR
 O                  O  O  0  O  O   O 
                                             O                   O

                                    O      O

The SE is not out there to catch a pass.  He's out there to get a block on a safety.  Here's his blocking angle versus Cover 2:
Now with this look the CR has to take the outside shoulder and opens up plays mentioned above and giving us a better block on S. Is this correct or close?
                                   WS                 SS

                      CR
                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O

And here it is versus Cover 1:

                                           S

                      CR
                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O
I was making the mistake in putting the SE out to wide and changed it Tues to make it a shorter block for the SE and I wanted to put the CR on the outside shoulder of my SE. I have more thoughts or problems but don't want to overwhelm you!

Offline DumCoach

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9687
  • Total likes: 568
  • "What me worry? I'm not far enough behind yet!"
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 03:39:04 PM »
The Pro way, what you are saying is making the CR take the inside shoulder of the SE correct now can't SE can't get to S

    CR
 O                  O  O  0  O  O   O 
                              O                   O

                     O      O


That is how you prevent the SE from blocking the safety.  The fact that this coverage was invented tells you the defense doesn't want SE's blocking their safeties.




Quote
Now with this look the CR has to take the outside shoulder and opens up plays mentioned above and giving us a better block on S. Is this correct or close?
                                   WS                 SS

                      CR
                         O        O  O 0 O  O    O
                                           O                              O
                                     O
                                           O


I haven't actually seen this done.  It looks like the defense is concerned about the outside so that the safeties can play the option.
[/quote]


Quote
I was making the mistake in putting the SE out to wide and changed it Tues to make it a shorter block for the SE and I wanted to put the CR on the outside shoulder of my SE. I have more thoughts or problems but don't want to overwhelm you!


If you're seeing corners up on the LOS versus an SE, you want to move the SE strong, either by formation ("SE Over") or post snap ("Left 56 Sweep"/"Left 58 Power").  It's very hard for a corner to react to either one. 

"SE Over":  The corner will come off the line or look like an idiot.  He can either back up or go over to the other side of the formation.  If he backs up, your SE shoud be just outside the WB drawing corner coverage like this:


   CR
                                                        CR
               O  O 0 O  O    O                   O
                       O                           O
               O     O 

Both corners are now "wasted players".  Now run to where they ain't.  Check first to see if "Quick Slant" to the WB is open.  He may be uncovered.  If he's covered, the "6" hole may be wide open.  If the TE has a man him, it means the defensive front has "shifted down" and lost a defender weakside.  Run "47 Speed" from "SE Over" as LT can now get the corner.  "23" is good" but "Right 65 Kick" is better.

If the corner changes sides of the field, you'll get this:


                                                CR
                                                        CR
               O  O 0 O  O    O                   O
                       O                           O
               O     O 

Run "47 Speed" with LT taking safety when there is no corner.

I'll add to this post as soon as I can grab a You Tube link.

OK.  Here's the link:



Go to the 6:00 minute mark (The first team can't even line up right).  Now watch the SE's shove the corners around.  If you call "Swap Ends", the TE will play SE and the SE will play TE.  But the TE will play it from a 3 point.  You can move him to 10 yards if you want. 

Now watch how the corners play 2 yards off and then wait to get hit.  So let's let them get hit.  Fom his three point the TE takes a 2 yard run at the corner with his pads down and drills him in the stomach, knocking him flat.  TE steps over his broken body and QB throws to TE.  Touchdown!

You can also practice your SE's at going around the corner to get to the safety by heading at his outside shoulder:


                  CR
                O           O  O 0 O  O    O
                                     O                            O
                               O    O

When an SE heads at the outside shoulder on an inside shade corner, the corner will fail to understand why.  To the corner, the SE is blocking him for sweep and not to get around him to get to the safety.  Given 2 yards to run at a corner just standing there like a sitting duck and you'll blow right by him to the safety (Again, notice how the standing corners get shoved around.).  Once the SE runs by him, the corner panics, believes he's pass releasing, and chases him from behind meaning SE blocks the safety and takes the corner with him: 2 for 1.

The coach that made that video did so to try and sell the defense.  He has since thrown that corner coverage out of his system.  So that tells you there was a problem (or a better solution - Take your pick).  And the problem IMO was very simple.  If the SE aims at the outside shoulder of the corner aligned 2 yards off him to get to the safety, not only will the corner be unable to prevent the SE from blocking the safety but it's ILLEGAL to even try.  You cannot interfere with an outside release.  It's either defensive holding or pass interference. 

It's a game of "smoke and mirrors".  The defense plays an inside shade corner believing it will stop an inside release and the offense releases well outside against it (as shown on the clips) believing the corner is positioned to stop the inside release.  Both are wrong.

The You Tube corner play I showed is quite common across the country for the situation I described.  If this is what you think you'll see, you should be able to shoot it full of holes in just 5 minutes of practice and the time it takes for the offensive captain to point out to the refs that it's illegal for the corners to interfere with the SE going to the safety (You have to point it out to half of them because they'll have never seen an SE go through a corner's outside shoulder before because "nobody does it".).

But this type of corner play should/or will interfere with "47 Speed".  The LT is going to illegally clip that corner from behind.  Penalty on you.  To get that corner out of there and where LT can block legal, you have to go "SE Over".
 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 04:45:51 PM by DumCoach »
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline lost episodes

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1667
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 03:57:25 PM »
That is how you prevent the SE from blocking the safety.  The fact that this coverage was invented tells you the defense doesn't want SE's blocking their safeties.




I haven't actually seen this done.  It looks like the defense is concerned about the outside so that the safeties can play the option.
 


If you're seeing corners up on the LOS versus an SE, you want to move the SE strong, either by formation ("SE Over") or post snap ("Left 56 Sweep"/"Left 58 Power").  It's very hard for a corner to react to either one. 

"SE Over":  The corner will come off the line or look like an idiot.  He can either back up or go over to the other side of the formation.  If he backs up, your SE shoud be just outside the WB drawing corner coverage like this:


   CR
                                                        CR
               O  O 0 O  O    O                   O
                       O                           O
               O     O 

Both corners are now "wasted players".  Now run to where they ain't.  Check first to see if "Quick Slant" to the WB is open.  He may be uncovered.  If he's covered, the "6" hole may be wide open.  If the TE has a man him, it means the defensive front has "shifted down" and lost a defender weakside.  Run "47 Speed" from "SE Over" as LT can now get the corner.  "23" is good" but "Right 65 Kick" is better.

If the corner changes sides of the field, you'll get this:


                                                CR
                                                        CR
               O  O 0 O  O    O                   O
                       O                           O
               O     O 

Run "47 Speed" with LT taking safety when there is no corner.

I'll add to this post as soon as I can grab a You Tube link.
Thanks, I've installed SEO! I think I'm on the right page!

Offline DumCoach

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9687
  • Total likes: 568
  • "What me worry? I'm not far enough behind yet!"
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 04:46:19 PM »
I added the link.
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline lost episodes

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1667
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 02:39:35 AM »
Yes, it worked in practice a lot better today.
Different subject, I moved the HB out wider to run 34 is this ok.

Offline DumCoach

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9687
  • Total likes: 568
  • "What me worry? I'm not far enough behind yet!"
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 01:55:56 PM »
Yes, it worked in practice a lot better today.
Different subject, I moved the HB out wider to run 34 is this ok.

"34"?

As per the manual, the HB is badly positioned to run "34"  unless he were to take two "slide steps" sideways.
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline Wing-n-It

  • Gold
  • Posts: 4498
  • Total likes: 428
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 6-3
  • Offense: DC Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 02:00:28 PM »
"34"?

As per the manual, the HB is badly positioned to run "34"  unless he were to take two "slide steps" sideways.

It must be a DW thing  ::)

Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline DumCoach

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9687
  • Total likes: 568
  • "What me worry? I'm not far enough behind yet!"
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 02:17:24 PM »
It must be a DW thing  ::)

Actually, that's exactly what it is...
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline lost episodes

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1667
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2011, 03:15:37 PM »
"34"?

As per the manual, the HB is badly positioned to run "34"  unless he were to take two "slide steps" sideways.
What I have him do is angle towards the closes heel of the FB(option like) and then hard cut up field to the 4 hole

Offline Wing-n-It

  • Gold
  • Posts: 4498
  • Total likes: 428
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 6-3
  • Offense: DC Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2011, 03:18:30 PM »
LT.

I tell ya my friend..... NO SLOW MOTION. No cross over, no slide step, just quick movement. You will force the defense to move quick if you motion quick.

Think of it as the quick and the dead.

If your not the quick  your the dead   ???
Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline lost episodes

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1667
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2011, 03:33:04 PM »
LT.

I tell ya my friend..... NO SLOW MOTION. No cross over, no slide step, just quick movement. You will force the defense to move quick if you motion quick.

Think of it as the quick and the dead.

If your not the quick  your the dead   ???
Oh no, the motion is still fast from the WB I just have the HB angle like option and cut to 4 hole. I will film tonight to show!

Offline psully

  • Copper
  • Posts: 296
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: Middle School
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: I Formation
  • Title: Assistant
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 11:19:24 PM »
Should the SE be lined up at about 4 yards from the EMLOS?

 I saw in the examples how the SE would block the safety on Cover 1 and Cover 2. What about Cover 3 with CB's playing about 8 yards back? Wouldn't they be considered the nearest, deepest defender to block first?

Offline psully

  • Copper
  • Posts: 296
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: Middle School
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: I Formation
  • Title: Assistant
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 11:23:42 PM »
Also, last season we were getting killed pass blocking a 6-2 defense even with LT/RT bucket steps. Does anyone have advice on how to better pass block as a team? Do you have linemen slide/scoop step on pass blocking?

Offline Sollly

  • Copper
  • Posts: 469
  • Total likes: 0
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
Re: The most common DCWT mistake I've ever seen
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2011, 01:52:01 PM »
This post has made me realize that I need to make some personnel changes. My left tackle is designated an X player which by conference rules must be covered by a non X player taking away my ability to use SE over.

I need to move the X player to guard so that my left tackle who is a non X player will satisfy the rule and allow me to use SE over.

In my league a SE over would most likely bring the CB up on the line next to the DE usually which may make it hard to get outside on 47 speed. That give me an extra blocker on the right side. I'm thinking any run wide to the right should work better. 38 power toss etc. Sending SE to nearest deepest?

Thoughts?

Thanks
Rob
Defense: Killer Bee