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Author Topic: Defending the Veer  (Read 384 times)

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Online COACH JC

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Defending the Veer
« on: August 22, 2017, 04:28:09 PM »
Facing a REALLY good Veer option team. They almost never pitch. They run inside & outside veer. They hit the hole very hard on dive.

We're a 4-2-5. Curious if any of you have faced a good Veer team, & if you have some ideas on how to slow it down?
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Online COACH JC

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 02:00:48 AM »
Not a single response. lol. So basically you're saying we're screwed huh?
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 05:39:12 AM »
J

First, what formations are they using?

Defending Veer from 4-2-5 can be problematic. The DE's must squeeze & the BS has to roll down into a 4-4 look. Some teams will play Mike on the Dive back & Will on the QB, this really depends on if they play with a SE or not.

If they almost never Pitch you can "sink" everyone's assignments in a Man & assign C's to the pitch.

Joe
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Offline coacharnold

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 09:36:40 AM »
Play zone coverage so your secondary can get their eyes forward.  Play a 7 tech DE in C gap--this makes Outside Veer difficult because he's parked right in the dive back's path.

Start with the force player in coverage on the pitch--usually this is the flat player.  Even if they don't do it much, you still have to respect it.  The force player's job needs to be to always force the outside run back inside with his outside arm free: here, the pitch needs to be treated as the "outside" run.

I'm assuming you're a spill team if you're 4-2-5.  If you are, then squeeze and scrape with the front: have the DL all play "block down, step down" where they squeeze off the hip of the OL across from them.  Have them attack the OL to disrupt their release to LB and get eyes inside for the first threat (dive on triple option).  They'll take the first threat.

The LBs will see the gap "dissolve" and scrape over to overlap with the DL, fitting off their butt and taking QB.

Deep coverage player in the zone will backpedal and run the alley late from QB to pitch.

Like in any other defense, the backside LB needs to slow play things for cutback until the ball is crossing the LOS and the BSDE needs to stay home for Bootleg, Counter, and Reverse until the ball has crossed the LOS.  Everyone else should pursue from the inside and just run to the ball.

This is tough on a veer team and will keep you sound vs. inside and outside veer, as well as other options like speed option, zone read, midline, etc.  If you build the squeeze and scrape into your defense as an extension of the spilling philosophy of the 4-2-5, it's pretty much already built in and you're just teaching your kids how to apply what they should already do on every other play, anyway.

Then you might want to have some stunts in there.  Have one to send the DE hard on dive while the LB crashes hard on QB.  Have another where the DE crashes on the QB (to force the give read) and the LB falls in on the dive.

Focus on taking away dive and QB so they have to pitch the ball--few veer teams do it very well, especially at the youth level, and you will likely get some turnovers if they have to pitch it all night.  If they can just give the dive or keep the ball, they're going to have an easy game.

Online COACH JC

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 10:33:02 AM »
J

First, what formations are they using?

Defending Veer from 4-2-5 can be problematic. The DE's must squeeze & the BS has to roll down into a 4-4 look. Some teams will play Mike on the Dive back & Will on the QB, this really depends on if they play with a SE or not.

If they almost never Pitch you can "sink" everyone's assignments in a Man & assign C's to the pitch.

Joe


Joe,

Mlst of the time they go from double tight w/ an SE. Split back. Sometimes they split out 2 SE's. Occasionally they go 2x2 & run some midline.

My 1st thought was DE on dive, Mike on QB, SS on pitch. FS plays the alley.

Should note that our Mike is an absolute monster. Our SSDE is solid. Our SS is really fast. They flip their dive back, so figured we'd use him to align to strength.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 10:42:22 AM »
J

Asking Mike to play the QB is very difficult. Assuming M is in a 20 he just can't get there.

Now we do teach our guys to Play FB to QB, but that means he plays the Dive first.

VS DBL TE's with a Flank(which is what I think you are describing) you have to roll the BS down to give you a 4-4 look. Or you could roll the corner up(not my choice). Let the DE's play dive to QB, & have the OLB & the BS play the QB. If they start gashing you up front have an inverted 2 call(it's cover7 to us) where the FS rolls down & the CB's play 1/2's. Now you can widen the  ILB's & OLB's out.

Joe
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Online COACH JC

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 10:48:51 AM »
Play zone coverage so your secondary can get their eyes forward.  Play a 7 tech DE in C gap--this makes Outside Veer difficult because he's parked right in the dive back's path.

Start with the force player in coverage on the pitch--usually this is the flat player.  Even if they don't do it much, you still have to respect it.  The force player's job needs to be to always force the outside run back inside with his outside arm free: here, the pitch needs to be treated as the "outside" run.

I'm assuming you're a spill team if you're 4-2-5.  If you are, then squeeze and scrape with the front: have the DL all play "block down, step down" where they squeeze off the hip of the OL across from them.  Have them attack the OL to disrupt their release to LB and get eyes inside for the first threat (dive on triple option).  They'll take the first threat.

The LBs will see the gap "dissolve" and scrape over to overlap with the DL, fitting off their butt and taking QB.

Deep coverage player in the zone will backpedal and run the alley late from QB to pitch.

Like in any other defense, the backside LB needs to slow play things for cutback until the ball is crossing the LOS and the BSDE needs to stay home for Bootleg, Counter, and Reverse until the ball has crossed the LOS.  Everyone else should pursue from the inside and just run to the ball.

This is tough on a veer team and will keep you sound vs. inside and outside veer, as well as other options like speed option, zone read, midline, etc.  If you build the squeeze and scrape into your defense as an extension of the spilling philosophy of the 4-2-5, it's pretty much already built in and you're just teaching your kids how to apply what they should already do on every other play, anyway.

Then you might want to have some stunts in there.  Have one to send the DE hard on dive while the LB crashes hard on QB.  Have another where the DE crashes on the QB (to force the give read) and the LB falls in on the dive.

Focus on taking away dive and QB so they have to pitch the ball--few veer teams do it very well, especially at the youth level, and you will likely get some turnovers if they have to pitch it all night.  If they can just give the dive or keep the ball, they're going to have an easy game.

Thanks coach, I think we're on the right track. What you're describing is exactly what we were thinking.

Question: What technique would you have your 2 downlineman in most? We have the ability to move them around easily.

Does cutting w/ our down lineman make any since? Figured it might help hs keep our backers clean.
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Online COACH JC

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 11:30:43 AM »
J

Asking Mike to play the QB is very difficult. Assuming M is in a 20 he just can't get there.

Now we do teach our guys to Play FB to QB, but that means he plays the Dive first.

VS DBL TE's with a Flank(which is what I think you are describing) you have to roll the BS down to give you a 4-4 look. Or you could roll the corner up(not my choice). Let the DE's play dive to QB, & have the OLB & the BS play the QB. If they start gashing you up front have an inverted 2 call(it's cover7 to us) where the FS rolls down & the CB's play 1/2's. Now you can widen the  ILB's & OLB's out.

Joe


Gotcha. So what is Mike's primary read/responsibility?

Also, any thoughts on the down-lineman alignment/technique?
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 11:42:12 AM »
J

DT's are usually 3 & 2I, you can move them some or stack them & game them.

Near back to QB, for the M.

IMHO stopping the Dive back is the key. especially since they are playing DBL TE's.

Joe
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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 12:00:06 PM »
J

DT's are usually 3 & 2I, you can move them some or stack them & game them.

Near back to QB, for the M.

IMHO stopping the Dive back is the key. especially since they are playing DBL TE's.

Joe


Ya, I agree the dive is the key. We want them to pitch every time. We have some speed, we can chase a pitch back.

Any tips on keeper the backers clean? Will you guys cut w/ your down lineman or hold the O-line? If I can just keep my Mike clean, he can stop any RB. He's the most physically dominant player in our region, so we really gotta figure out how to keep the bubbles from getting in his way & preventing him from coming down hill.
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Offline coacharnold

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 12:07:58 PM »
Thanks coach, I think we're on the right track. What you're describing is exactly what we were thinking.

Question: What technique would you have your 2 downlineman in most? We have the ability to move them around easily.

Does cutting w/ our down lineman make any since? Figured it might help hs keep our backers clean.

I'd play the DTs in a 3 and a 2i or maybe even dual 3s for a split 4 look against double tight.  7 on the TE.  Bring both S into the box as overhangs to give a 4-4- look.

Don't cut with the down linemen.  If you do that, not only might you get flagged (though that's a long shot in most leagues), but they also lose the ability to play the first threat and tackle the dive back.

Instead, teach them to attack the OL across from them and try to mash them back while keeping their eyes in their gap and squeezing off his hip--make sure they're getting eyes inside for the first threat if they see a downblock.  If the T is trying to veer release, he won't be tangling with the DE for too long, but it'll be just long enough for the LB to scrape over.

What other complimentary plays do they run off the veer?

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Online COACH JC

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 02:20:30 PM »
I'd play the DTs in a 3 and a 2i or maybe even dual 3s for a split 4 look against double tight.  7 on the TE.  Bring both S into the box as overhangs to give a 4-4- look.

Don't cut with the down linemen.  If you do that, not only might you get flagged (though that's a long shot in most leagues), but they also lose the ability to play the first threat and tackle the dive back.

Instead, teach them to attack the OL across from them and try to mash them back while keeping their eyes in their gap and squeezing off his hip--make sure they're getting eyes inside for the first threat if they see a downblock.  If the T is trying to veer release, he won't be tangling with the DE for too long, but it'll be just long enough for the LB to scrape over.

What other complimentary plays do they run off the veer?

Gotcha.

All I have on them is individual highlight film. I have 1 full game of the PW level (their whole program runs the SBV), but their JV's are much crisper than the PW's obviously.

But from what i've seen, they have a counter where the backks cross. And it looks like they might have a power play. They rarely pass, but when they do it's ti the TE's or backs on a swing pass. Sometimes they'll throw some jump balls to their WR's.

I'd say it's probably 80% inside & outside veer tho. Especially week 1.
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Offline coacharnold

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 02:30:06 PM »
Gotcha.

All I have on them is individual highlight film. I have 1 full game of the PW level (their whole program runs the SBV), but their JV's are much crisper than the PW's obviously.

But from what i've seen, they have a counter where the backks cross. And it looks like they might have a power play. They rarely pass, but when they do it's ti the TE's or backs on a swing pass. Sometimes they'll throw some jump balls to their WR's.

I'd say it's probably 80% inside & outside veer tho. Especially week 1.

So what age group is this you're coaching, exactly?  Is it 13 year olds?

Sounds like if you can stop the ISV and OSV, and keep the BSDE and BSLB back for cutback and BCR, you'll be in good shape.

Online COACH JC

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Re: Defending the Veer
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2017, 05:38:04 PM »
So what age group is this you're coaching, exactly?  Is it 13 year olds?

Sounds like if you can stop the ISV and OSV, and keep the BSDE and BSLB back for cutback and BCR, you'll be in good shape.

Ya mostly 12's & 13's.

Hey, what do you guys think about having our 7 tech try & lock up the TE & drive him towards the dive back? Based on what i've seen, the TE getting up to the Mike is what really makes the play. Would also slow down down the TE when he tries to release for a pass.

And yes, I know the rules on defensive holding. Also know the rules on offensive holding (which we all do). lol. And this would be more of a violent drive down the line than straight up holding.
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