Consider helping MosleyTheCat keep the web hosting hamsters fed and happy. Please Donate.

Author Topic: Dave Cisar's study of success and consistently poor youth football programs.  (Read 4726 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Coach Smith

  • Bronze
  • Posts: 668
  • Total likes: 141
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Coordinator
I know I read about it before but can't seem to find it does anyone know where to get it?
check out http://www.coaches-clinic.com/



If any thing goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good, then you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you.
 ~Paul Bear Bryant

Offline CoachDP

  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 18182
  • Total likes: 4304
  • "Want to Get Better Players? Be A Better Coach."
    • Coach Dave Potter
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Double Wing
  • Title: Assistant
Did you ask Dave Cisar?

--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline Coach Smith

  • Bronze
  • Posts: 668
  • Total likes: 141
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Coordinator
Go right to the source what a sneaky idea :P
check out http://www.coaches-clinic.com/



If any thing goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good, then you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you.
 ~Paul Bear Bryant

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9082
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Coach

Here is an article I did on the subject:
http://www.winningyouthfootball.com/wp-blog/

Let the sparks fly  ;D
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline jrk5150

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7560
  • Total likes: 811
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 3-3 Stack
  • Offense: Double Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Good stuff.

Question about bird dog/fit and freeze drills. How do you account for path issues when you aren't getting movement out of the blocks?

I'll put my own context so you can see where I'm coming from: I run power off tackle.  I instruct my pulling G to scrape the playside blockers and turn up.  I expect the TE blocking down to move the DT down, so my G is typically turning up about where the OT originally aligns if not tighter.  So how can we rep that tight turn, and the ball carrier hitting it up tight behind him, when we're in fit and freeze so the OT and TE are fitting onto the DT in the place where they're supposed to go?

You'd think that's a minor issue, but getting the puller and the ball to cut up as tightly as I want them to is actually a major issue, so I hate to do ANYTHING that reinforces the wrong path...

That's been my struggle when I try to get reps for fit and freeze - it's not a realistic path for the ball and puller.

My solution has been to go "live" against bags or go full speed with resistance only (not full/live contact) to get the movement I want, but that's slower and doesn't give you the right evaluation of their fit/technique.


Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9082
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Good stuff.

Question about bird dog/fit and freeze drills. How do you account for path issues when you aren't getting movement out of the blocks?

I'll put my own context so you can see where I'm coming from: I run power off tackle.  I instruct my pulling G to scrape the playside blockers and turn up.  I expect the TE blocking down to move the DT down, so my G is typically turning up about where the OT originally aligns if not tighter.  So how can we rep that tight turn, and the ball carrier hitting it up tight behind him, when we're in fit and freeze so the OT and TE are fitting onto the DT in the place where they're supposed to go?

You'd think that's a minor issue, but getting the puller and the ball to cut up as tightly as I want them to is actually a major issue, so I hate to do ANYTHING that reinforces the wrong path...

That's been my struggle when I try to get reps for fit and freeze - it's not a realistic path for the ball and puller.

My solution has been to go "live" against bags or go full speed with resistance only (not full/live contact) to get the movement I want, but that's slower and doesn't give you the right evaluation of their fit/technique.

Great question

When we do fit and freeze- we are 11 in and 11 out on every play
We dont have 11 defenders on the field- we just have 4-5 coaches/dads with shields at the POA
So for our off tackle Power we have guys at:
Near LB
playside CB
Far or MLB
playside DE

We have "imaginary" defenders on the Oline UNLESS we are trapping or whamming- in that case one of the shield guys moves to DT, NT etc

The oline take 2 steps- pullers obviously more- but like you- our edge guys will take their 2 steps and then chop movement for another couple of feet to simulate movement

We do our real fit and freeze fits during group Oline drills- where we mix up the alignments AND then eventually going live there
MUCH easier to do in group than team
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 11:39:47 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24079
  • Total likes: 2421
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 7 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Coach

Here is an article I did on the subject:
http://www.winningyouthfootball.com/wp-blog/

Let the sparks fly  ;D


Good stuff Dave.

I believe #8 is a biggie. Just eye testing on the field without going to their practice sessions, the great teams play great D, the poor teams although not too bad on O generally, play poor D.

Just look at this Forum. The O discussions out weight the D discussions 3:1.

Thanks for the link. Making this one a Sticky.
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline jrk5150

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7560
  • Total likes: 811
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 3-3 Stack
  • Offense: Double Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Got it Dave, thank you.

When I go team reps on air, we haven't taken the proper approach to the line doing their 2-3-4 steps.  Of course, now, it seems obvious...


Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9082
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Good stuff Dave.

I believe #8 is a biggie. Just eye testing on the field without going to their practice sessions, the great teams play great D, the poor teams although not too bad on O generally, play poor D.

Just look at this Forum. The O discussions out weight the D discussions 3:1.

Thanks for the link. Making this one a Sticky.


Mike

thank you
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline Bob Goodman

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9277
  • Total likes: 326
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Stack
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Assistant
Question about bird dog/fit and freeze drills. How do you account for path issues when you aren't getting movement out of the blocks?

I'll put my own context so you can see where I'm coming from: I run power off tackle.  I instruct my pulling G to scrape the playside blockers and turn up.  I expect the TE blocking down to move the DT down, so my G is typically turning up about where the OT originally aligns if not tighter.  So how can we rep that tight turn, and the ball carrier hitting it up tight behind him, when we're in fit and freeze so the OT and TE are fitting onto the DT in the place where they're supposed to go?

You'd think that's a minor issue, but getting the puller and the ball to cut up as tightly as I want them to is actually a major issue, so I hate to do ANYTHING that reinforces the wrong path...

That's been my struggle when I try to get reps for fit and freeze - it's not a realistic path for the ball and puller.
Who said you had to get all those moving parts in the same type of drill?

Offline Bob Goodman

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9277
  • Total likes: 326
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Stack
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Assistant
I believe #8 is a biggie. Just eye testing on the field without going to their practice sessions, the great teams play great D, the poor teams although not too bad on O generally, play poor D.
I've had the general sense from every time I coached that difference in the performance of the D made a bigger difference in W-L than difference in the performance of the O did.  Not by an overwhelming amount, not so much that I could say it was a 3- or even 2-to-1 input factor, but noticeably more.

It seems the main difference is how much limiting gains on wide runs matters in youth football.  If you can turn a good number of them that would be a TD given up by other teams into "just" a 25- or 30-yard gain vs. yours, that's often the difference.
Quote
Just look at this Forum. The O discussions out weight the D discussions 3:1.
But I don't think that reflects the amount of time or effort we devote to them in practice.  It's more about the amount there is to discuss in youth football.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

  • Administrator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 12483
  • Total likes: 2415
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Retired
Good stuff.

Question about bird dog/fit and freeze drills. How do you account for path issues when you aren't getting movement out of the blocks?

I'll put my own context so you can see where I'm coming from: I run power off tackle.  I instruct my pulling G to scrape the playside blockers and turn up.  I expect the TE blocking down to move the DT down, so my G is typically turning up about where the OT originally aligns if not tighter.  So how can we rep that tight turn, and the ball carrier hitting it up tight behind him, when we're in fit and freeze so the OT and TE are fitting onto the DT in the place where they're supposed to go?

You'd think that's a minor issue, but getting the puller and the ball to cut up as tightly as I want them to is actually a major issue, so I hate to do ANYTHING that reinforces the wrong path...

That's been my struggle when I try to get reps for fit and freeze - it's not a realistic path for the ball and puller.

My solution has been to go "live" against bags or go full speed with resistance only (not full/live contact) to get the movement I want, but that's slower and doesn't give you the right evaluation of their fit/technique.
Try teaching a skip pull instead. Or even a drop step and cross over. This helps give a little depth but it more importantly allows the puller to keep an eye on his poa. I think that is where pulling goes wrong. The guard turns his shoulders and loses sight of where he is going and then turns the corner and has to find the backer. This generally ends up with him standing in the hole looking for somebody to block as the backer runs by him. We have taught it a few different ways. I personally love  stepping back with the ps foot and then crossing bs foot with both feet angled at the poa as they land. For kids who had issues with pulling it really helped. Not that this is answer to the question you asked but I know you are a guy who is willing to try new stuff.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24079
  • Total likes: 2421
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 7 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
I've had the general sense from every time I coached that difference in the performance of the D made a bigger difference in W-L than difference in the performance of the O did.  Not by an overwhelming amount, not so much that I could say it was a 3- or even 2-to-1 input factor, but noticeably more.

It seems the main difference is how much limiting gains on wide runs matters in youth football.  If you can turn a good number of them that would be a TD given up by other teams into "just" a 25- or 30-yard gain vs. yours, that's often the difference.But I don't think that reflects the amount of time or effort we devote to them in practice.  It's more about the amount there is to discuss in youth football.

Good points.

I believe Defense is overlooked far too often. Its not sexy. Less understood by the novice.

It requires MORE effort to put a high quality D together over putting together a high quality O. The reason is the O is generating the action and the D must react to that action.

I also believe that a great Offense should guarantee you a playoff spot but a great Defense will bring home the Big Shiny Trophy. 
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline jrk5150

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7560
  • Total likes: 811
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 3-3 Stack
  • Offense: Double Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Try teaching a skip pull instead. Or even a drop step and cross over. This helps give a little depth but it more importantly allows the puller to keep an eye on his poa. I think that is where pulling goes wrong. The guard turns his shoulders and loses sight of where he is going and then turns the corner and has to find the backer. This generally ends up with him standing in the hole looking for somebody to block as the backer runs by him. We have taught it a few different ways. I personally love  stepping back with the ps foot and then crossing bs foot with both feet angled at the poa as they land. For kids who had issues with pulling it really helped. Not that this is answer to the question you asked but I know you are a guy who is willing to try new stuff.

I always show them a couple of ways to pull if they struggle with timing.  Bottom line to me is get there - if you're getting there now, I don't mess with it.

Offline patriotsfatboy1

  • Gold
  • Posts: 3193
  • Total likes: 653
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 6-3
  • Offense: Double Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Good points.

I believe Defense is overlooked far too often. Its not sexy. Less understood by the novice.

It requires MORE effort to put a high quality D together over putting together a high quality O. The reason is the O is generating the action and the D must react to that action.

I also believe that a great Offense should guarantee you a playoff spot but a great Defense will bring home the Big Shiny Trophy.

I don't have a large enough sample on this, but I had an easier time teaching defense. I focused on tackling, rushing and aggression in drills and then the scheme was put in over time. Scheme was about getting more of our players at POA than the O. The rest was gap responsibility, coverage (where applicable) and whether they had BCR. Maybe we had some smart kids, but it did not take as much time as it did on O