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Author Topic: Org splitting...what to do?  (Read 1483 times)

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Offline BTS

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Org splitting...what to do?
« on: December 31, 2018, 01:22:43 PM »
The org I coach with and most importantly my kids play in is splitting which brings about a tough decision. The people starting the new org were with us for one year and secretly recruited one of our coaches who will be able to get most of his team to follow. I do not think going is right because I feel what the did was dirty but most of my kids teammates they've played with the past couple of years will be going. What should we do?

Offline bdjackson

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2018, 02:36:34 PM »
The org I coach with and most importantly my kids play in is splitting which brings about a tough decision. The people starting the new org were with us for one year and secretly recruited one of our coaches who will be able to get most of his team to follow. I do not think going is right because I feel what the did was dirty but most of my kids teammates they've played with the past couple of years will be going. What should we do?

Well first what was the reason for the split. Is there something that your organization is not providing that they new Org can? Is it a rules issue as I know AFYs big push is that they do not have weight restrictions where pop Warner does? Are they a direct competitor to your org, or some sort of AAU/Travel Team. It would suck to lose your kids but those types of team don’t typically take the “lesser” kids from other organizations. If it is a competitive organization I might try and have a meeting with everyone to see if there is a possible resolution as we do this for kids not our own benefit... well we shouldn’t do it for that reason. I know this isn’t an answer, but I think these answers can help the coaches here provide better feedback. Good luck and look forward to your response.

-Brian
Being Capable, first begins with being Confident.

Offline BTS

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2018, 02:49:41 PM »
The split appears to be over personality conflicts more than anything as the people splitting did not like the board of the current org. The current org is not perfect by any means but none are. There were a lot of upset parents and coaches this year over uniforms and fundraising but the new org will encounter the same problems and they are offering nothing more just promising they'll be a better org. The new org is going to be in the same league and the same area of town.

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2018, 02:59:15 PM »
The people starting the new org were with us for one year and secretly recruited one of our coaches who will be able to get most of his team to follow.

--What does "secretly recruited" mean?

I do not think going is right because I feel what the did was dirty

--How was it dirty?  People can't make a choice to come and go as they please?  Coaches can't let players and parents know they're going someplace else?  Players and parents can't choose to play for a particular coach or org?  Or, should it be like the Mafia; once you've made your allegiance, there's no going back?

but most of my kids teammates they've played with the past couple of years will be going. What should we do?

--About what?  I don't see a conflict.  Or a "situation."  I'd keep coaching.  If retention is a problem, then I'd work to make my org more attractive to the participants.

--Dave

« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 07:09:30 PM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2018, 04:05:48 PM »
How was it dirty?  People can't make a choice to come and go as they please?  Coaches can't let players and parents know they're going someplace else?  Players and parents can't choose to play for a particular coach or org?  Or should it be like the Mafia; once you've made your allegiance, there's no going back?
I'm going to take a guess here: that the splitting off was organized during the season, and considered dirty for that reason.  It could be awfully demoralizing for a club to be operating one or more teams during a season while having disgruntled parents, coaches, players, and administrators from that club talking about organizing an alternative.  And it'd be just as demoralizing whether it was discussed openly or kept from the knowledge of some involved.

Unfortunately, demoralizing, dirty, and in bad faith as that might be, that's the most practicable time to be discussing these things.

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2018, 04:32:16 PM »
I'm going to take a guess here: that the splitting off was organized during the season, and considered dirty for that reason.

--What difference does it make when someone decides to leave?  Some parents decide at the beginning of a season that they aren't happy.  Others become disgruntled as they see things play out during the season.  Others wait until the season is over to determine it.  Who cares when they make that decision?  It doesn't really matter.  In the NFL, players play out their option.  In college and high school, they transfer.  In youth ball, they switch to a different org, or start their own.  Coaches do it, too.  Manny Diaz left Miami for Temple and then two weeks later bolted back to Miami.  People go where they want to be.  Who in their right mind would stay at a place they're unhappy in?

It could be awfully demoralizing for a club to be operating one or more teams during a season while having disgruntled parents, coaches, players, and administrators from that club talking about organizing an alternative. 

--And it can be awfully demoralizing for parents and players to be in an organization that isn't well run, or doesn't demonstrate the right priorities (whatever they may be).  Parents and players won't realize it until they're already in the org, so what do they do?  They start planning to leave.  Makes sense to me.

And it'd be just as demoralizing whether it was discussed openly or kept from the knowledge of some involved.

--Well, it can be even more disruptive if it's discussed out in the open during the season.

Unfortunately, demoralizing, dirty, and in bad faith as that might be, that's the most practicable time to be discussing these things.

--I'm completely missing the "dirty" or "bad faith" aspect of this.  If you don't like where you are, you don't have a right to leave?

--Dave

« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 04:37:34 PM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2018, 04:45:59 PM »
The split appears to be over personality conflicts more than anything as the people splitting did not like the board of the current org.

--Many youth orgs get started when a core group of parents don't like the way their present org is run.  No news there.  Nothing wrong with it, either.  Plenty of orgs will tell parents, "If you don't like it here, there's the door."

The current org is not perfect by any means but none are.

--No, none are.  But everyone has a right to leave.  Anyone has the right to start their own org.  And kids change teams all the time for all kinds of reasons.  Seems that leaving because you're unhappy would be a good reason.

There were a lot of upset parents and coaches this year over uniforms and fundraising but the new org will encounter the same problems and they are offering nothing more just promising they'll be a better org.

--A promise of a better future sounds better than the reality of knowing that you're presently standing in dog poop.  The future may be worse, better or the same.  Not sure how you know for sure, but my focus wouldn't be on what another org does, but "How can I make sure we provide the best possible experience for our players and parents?"  Complaining about what your opponent does is a waste of time.  Nor does it make any sense.

--Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 07:07:32 PM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2019, 09:58:54 AM »
Quote
I'm going to take a guess here: that the splitting off was organized during the season, and considered dirty for that reason.

--What difference does it make when someone decides to leave?
It's not about when they decide, it's about others finding out they've already decided or are considering it.
Quote
Who in their right mind would stay at a place they're unhappy in?
Many, to finish the season.
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Unfortunately, demoralizing, dirty, and in bad faith as that might be, that's the most practicable time to be discussing these things.
--I'm completely missing the "dirty" or "bad faith" aspect of this.  If you don't like where you are, you don't have a right to leave?
Of course they have a right to leave.  They also have a right to talk about it.  And there are many advantages to be gained by talking about it at that time.  But it's a matter of bad faith if you're playing, coaching, or administrating in an organiz'n that you've already decided to quit or if you're discussing w others in the organiz'n the advantages of quitting.  However, the overall gain of some in the organiz'n by that discussion at that time may be worth the demoraliz'n of others in it.  It would be better for all if the discussion could take place after the season, but it's unlikely & inconvenient for the discussion to take place then.  Plus, those concerned may be less motivated to discuss these things after the season.

How often do parents discuss their contemplated divorce in front of their minor children?

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2019, 11:23:17 AM »
it's about others finding out they've already decided or are considering it.

--"Finding out?"  That's what was "dirty?"  Was his org not supposed to find out?  That doesn't even make sense.

it's a matter of bad faith if you're playing, coaching, or administrating in an organiz'n that you've already decided to quit or if you're discussing w others in the organiz'n the advantages of quitting.

--It's not "bad faith."  It's "discussing your options." It's "discussing where you want to be."  I had no idea that certain discussions in-season were taboo.   ::)  How many times have I heard you discuss a negative about your own program, in season?

How often do parents discuss their contemplated divorce in front of their minor children?

--Oh, I can imagine quite a few.  What parents do or say in front of their own children no longer shocks me.  Parents are going to talk.  Sitting in the stands with running commentary is SOP for every youth to pro sports organization in the country.  And if that's your concern, then perhaps a Sunday-night phone call, a parents meeting, an off-season action plan, or making sure your parents know you're available for discussion 24/7 will stem some of it.  There's a reason the orgs I've coached in don't have these problems.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline CHARLIEDONTSURF

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 12:46:13 PM »
Agree with DP.  I take a capitalist view of youth sports.  Money finds the deal.  If you want folks to stay, be a better organization.  It shouldn't take an intervention or crisis.  Truth is you're not competing with other organizations.  You're competing with indifference.  Folks can choose to play for you, play for someone else, start their own league.  Or they can play flag football or just sit their kid out. 

But there shouldn't be any hurt feelings when folks pick up and go.  One of two things is true:

- They're the type of folks you want to keep.  If so, their flight should signal a problem and force you to re-evaluate your product.  You should welcome this.
- They're the type of folks you don't want to keep.  If so, good riddance.  They're not your target market and you have plenty of parents and kids who do want to play for you.

I see this a lot in jiujitsu, too. Schools tout "family" and claim it's a betrayal to grapple at another school or leave or compete under a different banner. But if times get tight, or a bunch of folks get laid off and can't afford the monthly dues, well, the school lets them train for free, right?  It's a family, right?  Well, some do, and in such cases the brand promise is met (and reciprocated).  But most schools are just businesses and so there shouldn't be any hard feelings when their students act like consumers.

Of course, all of this is a libertarian perspective.  If you don't share my preference for personal accountability, you won't agree with it.  It's like handguns, I suppose.  I see carrying a concealed handgun as making a choice to never place my well-being, or my family's well being, at the mercy of another man's good will for it.  Others see me as the reason kids die.  Not trying to have a gun control debate; I'm just highlighting the "good logic, bad premise" problem.  If you don't share the premise, we'll both make sense while talking past each other. 

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2019, 02:47:03 PM »
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it's about others finding out they've already decided or are considering it.
--"Finding out?"  That's what was "dirty?"  Was his org not supposed to find out?  That doesn't even make sense.
I'm surprised I have to spell it out in this much detail for you.

If a player or coach finds out during the season that some in the organiz'n are encouraging others to break away, that's bound to impair the concentration during practice, games, or even planning meetings of those who find that out.  It says the person next to you isn't as committed as you are to the effort.  Which means you're doing more for them than they're doing for you.
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Quote
it's a matter of bad faith if you're playing, coaching, or administrating in an organiz'n that you've already decided to quit or if you're discussing w others in the organiz'n the advantages of quitting.
--It's not "bad faith."  It's "discussing your options." It's "discussing where you want to be."  I had no idea that certain discussions in-season were taboo.   ::)  How many times have I heard you discuss a negative about your own program, in season?
There are certain things I'd discuss with them, & certain things I wouldn't.

What's funny is that some friends of mine say I "have no filter", meaning that I'm too frank or candid.  With online discussions like this, I suspect I have a better sense of what not to say than some other people do.
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How often do parents discuss their contemplated divorce in front of their minor children?

--Oh, I can imagine quite a few.  What parents do or say in front of their own children no longer shocks me.
So you're saying it used to shock you.  And the idea that parents likely would not talk about such things, or would be advised not to talk about such things, to or around their children, is not foreign to you.
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Parents are going to talk.  Sitting in the stands with running commentary is SOP for every youth to pro sports organization in the country.  And if that's your concern, then perhaps a Sunday-night phone call, a parents meeting, an off-season action plan, or making sure your parents know you're available for discussion 24/7 will stem some of it.  There's a reason the orgs I've coached in don't have these problems.
But is it understandable that BTS's organiz'n might be unlike that?  And that that's the reason he would refer to the goings-on as "dirty"?

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2019, 02:56:19 PM »
In all my effort to explain to others what I think BTS is thinking, I forgot to A the Q -- to advise BTS!
The org I coach with and most importantly my kids play in is splitting which brings about a tough decision. The people starting the new org were with us for one year and secretly recruited one of our coaches who will be able to get most of his team to follow. I do not think going is right because I feel what they did was dirty but most of my kids teammates they've played with the past couple of years will be going. What should we do?
I emphasized part of what you wrote because it says that what your kids do is more important to you than what you do.  Therefore you should do what your kids want.

Offline chucknduck

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2019, 04:16:34 PM »
BTS,
As long as your kids still have enough players for a team and you're still coaching, I don't see any problem here except you're going to lose most of your talented players.  If that's the case, I wouldn't worry one bit.  What's the worst that could happen, your win/loss record isn't as good?  Just coach the kids that stayed, no big deal.

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2019, 04:23:53 PM »
Just coach the kids that stayed, no big deal.

^ Best possible answer.

--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Org splitting...what to do?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2019, 04:30:31 PM »
The people starting the new org were with us for one year and secretly recruited one of our coaches

Unless the coach is paid by your org and has signed a contract, there's nothing inappropriate here.  A volunteer is a volunteer.

--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope