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Author Topic: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series  (Read 1604 times)

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Offline Vince148

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2017, 11:13:38 AM »
When coaches say, "It all starts with stance," what they mean is that's where they are going to start teaching from.  But successful play at the youth level doesn't start from stance; it starts from contact.  That's why I don't understand why I see so many 30-minute teaching sessions on stance and then hear the coach complain that the kids can't block.  Maybe the coach should spend his 30-minute teaching session on the block, instead.

--Dave
ok. So you coach the fits and final product first. I agree and that is what I have been doing. The question for me would be, then what is important and not important to teach? Is it a waste of time to teach breakdown and hit positions, rip, shoot, swoop, near foot, etc. or should they just be taught in a different order? And what would that order be?

It's great that the kid knows where to place his hands, head, and shoulder. But he also needs to know how he gets to that position on a runner from his linebacker or defensive back position.


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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2017, 11:27:53 AM »
The question for me would be, then what is important and not important to teach?

--You tell me.  I'm sure your list is different from mine.  I'm sure you know what works/doesn't work with the players you coach.  Or what you want to see/don't want to see from your players.  I'm sure you skin a cat differently from the way I do.

Is it a waste of time to teach breakdown and hit positions, rip, shoot, swoop, near foot, etc. or should they just be taught in a different order? And what would that order be?

--It is a waste of time for me to teach breakdown because I don't want my players doing that.  Ever.  But I'm the one in a million coaches who doesn't want their tacklers doing that so for me to espouse that here is a waste of your time.  I saw the video but I still don't know (or remember) what a "swoop" is.  We teach hit positions, running our feet, the rip, the squeeze, upward explosion and coming down with our weight on the ball-carrier.  We don't teach buzzing the feet.  Running in place means nothing to me; I want our players to close space ASAP.  We don't teach a gator-roll.  Seen a couple of ball-carriers get their knees torn apart with that.  But I know that others do.  To each his own.

It's great that the kid knows where to place his hands, head, and shoulder. But he also needs to know how he gets to that position on a runner from his linebacker or defensive back position.

--Or Defensive Lineman position.  But we teach tackling the same way to all of them.  The only tackling technique that I can recall that we taught differently is when teaching our really small players to tackle runners between the ankle and the knee.  "Kicking out the spokes," we called it.  But you'll need to bring a Slip-N-Slide to practice.

--Dave

« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 11:41:16 AM by CoachDP »
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Offline Vince148

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2017, 12:10:39 PM »

I think swoop is just getting yourself into a position of leverage with the near foot up.

The way I look at tackling...
1. Fits
2. Fit and takedown
3. Ripping
4. Driving through the ball carrier
5. Getting into a position of leverage with near foot up to make the tackle

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2017, 03:37:15 PM »
I didn't rule them out.  I said they weren't very good.  I didn't say "don't watch them/don't use them."  Watch them anyway.  There's probably something in there that you could get some use from.  But overall, I think they are a waste of time.  If you've attended a USAFootball seminar (and as a "Player Safety Coach," I've attended many throughout the years), how well do you think the coaches in attendance have done when being taught the USAFootball approach by the USAFootball guy?  While the demonstrator is often decisive in his instruction, the coaches (who are learning) either demonstrate very poor technique themselves, or are left scatching their head as to what it is they're supposed to do.  If the demonstrator can't teach a group of interested adults, then how effective are these guys going to be in taking that information to their own players?
I thought I picked it up pretty well from the one Gabe Infante gave.  Some of it did take more than one rep, though!

There's some of it I'd never use, some I thought was clever but not for me, but much I thought was great.

Offline Vince148

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2017, 08:13:55 AM »
--It is a waste of time for me to teach breakdown because I don't want my players doing that.  Ever.  But I'm the one in a million coaches who doesn't want their tacklers doing that so for me to espouse that here is a waste of your time.
Actually, I'd like to hear your reasoning. This morning, I came into my room and noticed on my whiteboard notes from a meeting. Must have been Jr. High because they had a game yesterday. Under the defensive points, #3 was "breakdown and tackle". So yes, I would like to know why you don't espouse breaking down and what do you do instead.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2017, 09:19:58 AM »
Swoop, shoot, buzz, rip, etc?

Reminds me of this:
https://youtu.be/8cuihrjLNAo?t=11s

I'm going to drop a turd in this punch bowl. I watch a TON of film and I'm hard pressed to find a single form tackle from either team. So my tackling instruction has devolved to getting your head on the correct side of the ball, hitting your shoulder in to his pants and grab something . . . anything.

Want more sound and consistent tackles? Get more guys in on the tackle.
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Offline Vince148

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2017, 09:36:00 AM »
Swoop, shoot, buzz, rip, etc?

Reminds me of this:
https://youtu.be/8cuihrjLNAo?t=11s

I'm going to drop a turd in this punch bowl. I watch a TON of film and I'm hard pressed to find a single form tackle from either team. So my tackling instruction has devolved to getting your head on the correct side of the ball, hitting your shoulder in to his pants and grab something . . . anything.

Want more sound and consistent tackles? Get more guys in on the tackle.
You know, sometimes I think we're so concerned about head injuries and concussions and player safety, that we've made things more complicated than they need to be. And the more you try to study up on things, the more complicated it gets.

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2017, 10:16:14 AM »
Under the defensive points, #3 was "breakdown and tackle".

--I'm not surprised.  It's one of the most oft-used teaching cliches for football.  Kinda like "low man wins."

So yes, I would like to know why you don't espouse breaking down and what do you do instead.

--We don't break down.  So what do we do instead?  We don't replace the break down with anything.  We simply tackle.  At full-speed.  Who would a ball-carrier prefer to have tackling him: a defender who attacks him full-speed, or a defender who attacks full-speed and then immediately slows down once he's 10-feet away?  I'd rather face a slowing defender.  There's simply no way a defender who breaks down, hits as hard as a defender who attacks full-speed.

So let's talk accuracy (i.e., missed tackles).  I've seen far more defenders get juked and miss, that used the break down technique, than those who didn't.  As a matter of fact, that's why we stopped breaking down many years ago.  I'd see defenders pursue and put themselves in great position to make the tackle and then break down, "gathering their feet" and then miss the tackle because it's now a 50/50 guess as to which direction the ball-carrier's going to go.  We were having "ankles broken" and defenders faked out.  When we stopped teaching that and went to full-speed pursuit 100% of the time, the ball-carrier then had no time to cut/juke/spin because we were coming in full-speed.  Our accuracy improved, we were no longer getting faked and our hits were much harder, all because we attacked at full-speed.  And if your pursuit is good, you'll have several players making the tackle at once.  Missed tackles are never my concern.

We also found that tacklers who had great confidence rarely, if ever, would break down and our defenders who were lacking confidence would break down all the time.  So we took that option away for all of our tacklers.  Final point:  In pursuit, many coaches stress that the fastest way to close distance is through the angle you take.  That is true.  And an even faster way to close distance is when the ball-carrier slows to make a move/cut/juke/dig/spin and defender doesn't.   Defenders who are taught the break down are often "played" by ball-carriers: when the ball-carrier runs fast, the defender runs fast, but when the ball-carrier slows as if he's getting ready to "make a move," the defender slows down as well, in anticipation of that cut.  Then the ball-carrier speeds up again and simply out runs the defender.  Why did the defender slow down?  Because the ball-carrier did?  What sense does that make?  If you want to catch the ball-carrier, never slow down.   

--Dave

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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2017, 10:16:39 AM »
You know, sometimes I think we're so concerned about head injuries and concussions and player safety, that we've made things more complicated than they need to be. And the more you try to study up on things, the more complicated it gets.

A thinking tackler is often a poor tackler.
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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2017, 10:17:27 AM »
Reminds me of this:
https://youtu.be/8cuihrjLNAo?t=11s

Lar, you probably found that on the USAFootball web site.

--Dave
"If You Want To Have Better Players, Be A Better Coach."

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Offline patriotsfatboy1

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2017, 10:33:56 AM »

Want more sound and consistent tackles? Get more guys in on the tackle.

This ^^

Now, we do focus on a couple of simple things - head is up ("eyes to the thighs" works for me) and to the side (we aim for head being behind the tackle, but not always possible), and we want to wrap up (arms around thighs or waist).  The rest of it is getting there quickly with a lot of friends. 

We may explain how to better accomplish some of those things.  For example, to keep the head up and to the side, we are showing them that they need to bend at the knees instead of the waist.  We may also get into different nuances of tackling when the runner does something different, but that is really advanced stuff.  For example, if the runner wants to stiff arm, we teach to grab that arm instead of going right for the waist. 

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2017, 10:36:45 AM »
if the runner wants to stiff arm, we teach to grab that arm instead of going right for the waist.

Eric, can you practice that?  If so, how?

--Dave
"If You Want To Have Better Players, Be A Better Coach."

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Offline patriotsfatboy1

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2017, 10:43:55 AM »
Eric, can you practice that?  If so, how?

--Dave

We don't have an explicit drill for it, but we do angle tackling drills where we will teach more of the advanced things with players who are ready for it.  We also are running plays on against our "scout" team defense and we will have starting defenders mixed in, so they learn it then.  I see it needed more with the OLB's and CB's, so we might discuss and work on it in indy's that are applicable. 

I think that we had this be applicable more in a year 3 kid than one starting out, but it worked as we had OLB's who were smaller and they needed to take down different sized kids.  Some gravitated to diving hard at the legs of a guy giving the stiff arm and some liked to grab that arm and pull down. 

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2017, 10:47:31 AM »
I'd like to teach it but I was just wondering how players could do that safely.  We've had three broken fingers this year and a broken arm.

--Dave
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Offline patriotsfatboy1

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Re: USA Football Shoulder Tackling Series
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2017, 10:56:55 AM »
I'd like to teach it but I was just wondering how players could do that safely.  We've had three broken fingers this year and a broken arm.

--Dave

From giving or getting a stiff arm?  I have seen kids get hurt giving one, but never making that tackle.