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Author Topic: What is more difficult to defend?  (Read 1096 times)

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Offline COACH JC

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 02:30:51 PM »
When we played Sigourney Keota in the 2005 state title game, the did this https://www.fearthewing.com/howard-jones-birdcage-shift/

- It made it very difficult because they would shift so fast and then snap the ball not long after.  With all the different looks, we really had to pay attention to what they were shifting to and get down and get set .

I've tought about doing this, just haven't thought of a clean way to install it.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2018, 02:34:46 PM »
Easiest to hardest
3
2
4
1 - especially if this team has a stud that you are trying to spy
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Offline tiger46

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2018, 04:04:16 PM »
For us, #1 would be the easiest to defend.  #4 would be the hardest to defend.  It has nothing to do with which method is better.  It has to do with what we practice against the most.  We get the most practice against #1.  We get the least practice against #4.  The least familiar will be the hardest to defend. 

On the other side of the ball, I don't have that much in-game experience using shifts no-huddle and a lot of multiple formations.  I have more experience with using motions, a couple of formations and using wrist coaches to speed up the tempo- not a sugar huddle.  I guess it would be more of a muddle huddle. And, that experience is mostly limited to HC'ing our 10u and 8u teams.  I'm not the HC/OC for our 12u team. 
 
My answer is from the perspective of a coach that works with some of the youngest age groups.  So, probably not all that applicable to the OP's question.  When I use different formations I'm not really that worried about what new things I can do out of the formation.  I'm more concerned with what same old things I can still do from the new formation.  I'm looking at the personnel- especially at the lower levels because rarely is a lineman their best defender.  We will usually win the upfront battles; meaning my RB's are routinely getting to the 2nd & 3rd levels before getting tackled because so many youth coaches do such a piss poor job in training their linemen.  We don't always have to get a hat on their best defender.  We can formation him away from the POA.  Influence him with motion.  Or, stall him with misdirection.  So, we get their best defender(s) out of the way and prey upon their poorly trained linemen that no longer have help or, have very little help behind them.

I know that is some really basic stuff.  But, coaches, sometimes, lose sight of the fact that the other coaching staff isn't on the field and playing in the game.  Their players are.

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Offline CoachDP

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 08:03:34 PM »
coaches, sometimes, lose sight of the fact that the other coaching staff isn't on the field and playing in the game.  Their players are.

^ This, all day long.

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Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2018, 07:02:54 AM »
That is why we ran so many darn formations. Kids can almost never adjust quickly to multiple formations. A few years into coaching we figured that we needed to stop trying to out scheme other coaches and just out scheme the kids. From that perspective scheming gets easy. At least in youth ball. They just don't have the practice time or the experience.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 08:42:07 AM »
Our defense changes constantly based on formations and motions as far as alignment and assignment. So the element that makes us hard to scout can be used against us by shifting and/or motion. The more the offense changes pre-snap, the more likely one of our defenders gets confused. That's why film and scout work is so important to us. Much easier if we can prepare the players for shifts and motion.  So I can see why different coaches have different answers to the original question.
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Offline Prodigy

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 01:54:58 PM »
Very few things are equal in youth football, only because different states, different levels of competition, different levels of coaching.  With that said, I would still bet in the vast majority of situations #1 is going to be your biggest bang for the buck, even without different sets. 

The thing people don't realize is that no huddle teams are conditioned differently than huddle teams.  There's an article in one of those "Bible of Offense" books by the american coaching association of football coaches or whatever it is, that talks about no huddle.  Simply put, if you are huddling and you move the ball something like 3 yards per play, and run 5 yards off of the line of scrimmage, your entire team ends up running an extra 1000 yards during a game.  What's laughable is that people think that no huddle requires better conditioning -- which isn't necessarily true.  Fact of the matter is if you CONDITION a no huddle team to move fast, they are going to have an advantage over a team that huddles that is well conditioned.

I've run no huddle for 5/6 years I've coached.  I've found that it doesn't give defenses much time to adjust, many defenses aren't conditioned well enough to handle the pace of a no huddle team and more often than not, defenses will end up over compensating for lack of time.  While the coach is on the sideline screaming "TIMMY MOVE OVER! MOVE OVER" and Timmy is looking at his coach feeling flustered and our play goes off --

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2018, 03:39:46 PM »
Very few things are equal in youth football, only because different states, different levels of competition, different levels of coaching.  With that said, I would still bet in the vast majority of situations #1 is going to be your biggest bang for the buck, even without different sets. 

The thing people don't realize is that no huddle teams are conditioned differently than huddle teams.  There's an article in one of those "Bible of Offense" books by the american coaching association of football coaches or whatever it is, that talks about no huddle.  Simply put, if you are huddling and you move the ball something like 3 yards per play, and run 5 yards off of the line of scrimmage, your entire team ends up running an extra 1000 yards during a game.  What's laughable is that people think that no huddle requires better conditioning -- which isn't necessarily true.  Fact of the matter is if you CONDITION a no huddle team to move fast, they are going to have an advantage over a team that huddles that is well conditioned.

I've run no huddle for 5/6 years I've coached.  I've found that it doesn't give defenses much time to adjust, many defenses aren't conditioned well enough to handle the pace of a no huddle team and more often than not, defenses will end up over compensating for lack of time.  While the coach is on the sideline screaming "TIMMY MOVE OVER! MOVE OVER" and Timmy is looking at his coach feeling flustered and our play goes off --
Yup.

Offline GP

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2018, 04:24:21 PM »
All have merit.

We're  a #1 and #3 team - fast paced no huddle, multiple formations with some motioning.

Shifting is certainly effective when well executed which is why you see so much of it at the NCAA & NFL level. However that is incentivized in multiple ways by the much higher player football IQ. Specifically 1) offensively you can trust players to shift / shift & motion without committing a penalty and 2) the higher IQ defenders are harder to fool with basic formationing & motions.

Now of course you CAN coach your kids to shift properly but at youth level practicing 4 hours / wk we seem to always have bigger fish to fry and it's easy enough to confuse defenses with #1 and #3 without risking an illegal shift penalty. Few things make me blow a gasket like a pre-snap penalty.

If I were coaching HS ball, would def have all four in my tool belt.
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Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2018, 04:52:49 PM »
We played around with all of them. When we started running some spread of course jet motion and crack motion was a big part of what we did. Shifting was the one we never really stuck with. We just never saw the results pan out the way we wanted it to.

Offline user007

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2018, 05:46:45 PM »
If yo can do the shifting and motioning spending lots of time that is great,  but after 6-7 years, 1 at the HS level, EXECUTION of just a few things/plays(adjustments to plays) is all that is needed.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2018, 06:12:06 PM »
007

Execution is paramount to being great. That being said, it is also important to have an answer to anything an opponent would do logically.

Do you have an answer for 8 or 9 in the box?

Do you have an answer for a team triggering a stunt on a formation or motion?

Do you have answer for a defender your guys can't block?

When we look at our offense & what we need to do, it's more than simply about our execution. We need answers for many things, the competition we play against will make adjustments.  Being a play late can really hurt us, so we often have adjustments built into everything we do.

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Offline user007

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2018, 07:26:38 PM »
007

Execution is paramount to being great. That being said, it is also important to have an answer to anything an opponent would do logically.

Do you have an answer for 8 or 9 in the box?

Do you have an answer for a team triggering a stunt on a formation or motion?

Do you have answer for a defender your guys can't block?

When we look at our offense & what we need to do, it's more than simply about our execution. We need answers for many things, the competition we play against will make adjustments.  Being a play late can really hurt us, so we often have adjustments built into everything we do.

Joe
I guess what I am getting at is that in most cases, the tricks and schemes approach is often times over valued  when the answer in many cases is jas simple as going to the other side for example
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 03:21:55 PM »
007

This answer may sound like a DWer, so be it.

Let's take Power for an example. We run Power, Power Read, Jet Power/ Read, & several other variations. In a game depending on the opponent we can run any variation we need to, so for example if the defense is squeezing the DE & looping the LB with the SS taking the bubble it may cause us problems running it from Pistol. We have a few different options, here are 2 quick ones we will use. Call Power Base read, now we block the end & read the ILB, or simply run it from the gun because the LB can't get to the RB & the Package is off with the Slot now blocking the SS.

The bottom line being not just running the play to other side, but having an adjustment within our scheme to account for everyone.

Joe
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Offline user007

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Re: What is more difficult to defend?
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 03:50:33 PM »
007

This answer may sound like a DWer, so be it.

Let's take Power for an example. We run Power, Power Read, Jet Power/ Read, & several other variations. In a game depending on the opponent we can run any variation we need to, so for example if the defense is squeezing the DE & looping the LB with the SS taking the bubble it may cause us problems running it from Pistol. We have a few different options, here are 2 quick ones we will use. Call Power Base read, now we block the end & read the ILB, or simply run it from the gun because the LB can't get to the RB & the Package is off with the Slot now blocking the SS.

The bottom line being not just running the play to other side, but having an adjustment within our scheme to account for everyone.

Joe
I have no doubt that series fb works. I am a firm believer in it, not only in running the ball via power, but throwing the ball as well. But I am talking about taking a play like power and saying we have ways to run power oh against most any reasonable front.
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