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Author Topic: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast  (Read 3004 times)

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Offline CoachParker

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2017, 11:26:24 PM »
We use a similar call to Domino on stunts with any formation we run.  We have one call that involves just the Center and Guards "cannon" and another call that involves the Center Guard and Tackles; "Zulu".

We try to start out with wide splits in many of our formations early in the season; usually 6 inches with guards, 2 feet with tackles and 3 to 4 with Tight ends.  We then will narrow them down once we find out who is not quick enough to deal with stunts etc.  It seems like we always get back to 1 foot and then sloppy (tackle) and nasty split (Tight Ends) at POA. 

We normally run Down blocks on our Beast Tight and Wide Formations.  And we are usually severe angle blocking (right or Left) down with the power side line and GOLD blocking on the weakside and the weak side Tight End GOO / hinge blocks.  The play side TE is to act like a bowling pin and knocks everyone down that is posted up or he assigned a stud to block.  The BBs are to block LBs and DBs or stud to block.  The BBs will slide off and around oline to find the DBs and outside back blocks the outside contain man.  I call our base Beast Block "JAW."

0000C00  Beast Tight
000  0     

    0000C00
000             Beast Wide of Worm
            0
On occasion we will block toward play Right or Left if Defense is stacking way outside.  The BBs on Worm will block 1, 2, 3 man outside of the man on the playside TE.

We do block our Beast Fat or our Pie formation (QB UC) a little different.  In our Beast Fat we have the RBs identify the empty spot in the LOS and BBs and OLine sloppy split (3 to 4 feet) at that hole.  We can lead or run counter action with the two RBs.  The Two BBs Block through hole and play side OLine Butt Butt Split blocks at hole called.  So we basically Mega split at the hole called at LOS of Sideline.  If I have called a hole via sideline and it is filled the BB call Wild and the hole moves out a hole until empty.  If it was Gap 8 defense, play becomes a stretch sweep or a Popeye - Pop pass audible.  ~ We nickname the lineman and thats how we call the hole at los.

        x      x
x  x      x  x  x  x
  00___00C00  Beast Fat
       00
              00

In the play above the Defense has left the hole between the 2 power tackles without a man on LOS.  We would split here.  About 99% of the time the dlinemen will move with the offense to create bigger hole and no one would stunt.  We do run this formation strong side to our sideline. 

We do block out Beast counters with an Even line and BB Split at the C gaps.  Works pretty good with BBs all leading through the hole.  I know a few teams that will BB Split play side on the Beast.  I assume you could call the hole at LOS in Beast Tight or Wide like we were doing in Beast Fat.

We just won a 12U Super Bowl running Beast and this Beast Fat audible system with Big Hole Gap and BB Split blocks by the Oline.  Crazy good.  Here's a video to explain what we were doing at LOS with the Line and Blocking Backs.
https://youtu.be/WUmViozfjmc

Actual game footage
https://youtu.be/QePRA3abka8

Hope this helps,
~ Parker



I'm looking for some input and feedback here.

Had what I think was a really successful Spring coaching the O-line. Last Fall, Mahonz was experimenting with a pin and pull system that I think confused everyone by Mike. So I went into the Spring looking to really simplify things. Our linemen can climb like nobody's business and can really dominate the 2nd level, so I wanted to take advantage of that. I decided that our base blocking on runs would be "Gap On Backer". We called it "Goober".

The OC and I had an epiphany in Game 1 running Beast. We ran it with the strong side toward our sideline so we could see the point of attack. I started calling out players and numbers to my TE and Power tackle. This worked really well as the defensive players started moving around to try and adjust to Beast. 2-3 yard gains became 5-7 yard gains. Once I got comfortable and did the same for the backs, they turned into 12-15 yard gains.

I have seen 2 defenses do really well vs Beast. Both had studs on our strong side and heavily featured twist stunts. I think Mike calls it "long sticking" when a guy stunts 2 gaps over. In our Bowl Game this Spring, the 9 tech stunted to the B gap and was to strong and fast to block.

Anyway . . . My mission for the Fall is to "Stunt Proof" the mega-wide splits Beast.

First, I'm going to further simplify the blocking rules. Step one is to decide if you are "covered" or not. In our offense, "covered" means there's a face mask between your outside shoulder and your inside buddy's outside shoulder.

Run: Covered guy, then 2nd level. Block your guy away from the ball. If there are two guys covering you . . . DOMINO
Pass: Covered guy, then fan out. Block your guy away from the ball (QB). If there are two guys covering you . . . Step down and protect your inside gap and/or inside buddy.

We also have a slide scheme for outside runs, but I'm not worried about that because we rarely run outside. The defense has to be begging for it for that to happen.

I'm leaning toward DOMINO to defeat the stunts and simply refining and really working the rules and techniques. In our Bowl game, the opponent came out in essentially a Gap 8, so that was an easy DOMINO call. Unfortunately, we hadn't had a reason to DOMINO for 3 weeks, so we were rusty. Our linemen would get fixated on blocking the next guy down, which allowed #9 to cross a couple of faces and get into the backfield.

So I really want to stress fast feet and running your feet on DOMINO. Fight to your inside buddy and No one crosses your face to the inside. Ignore anyone who crosses your face to the outside.

Thoughts?
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Offline CoachParker

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2017, 11:36:07 PM »
Ive also tried a Shovel pass with about 3 or 4 teams.  I can never make it work right.  Even with returning backfields.  I always wanted to have a great shovel pass play.  Same thing with a middle screen that my team ran when I was 9.  I cant get mine to work as well as my old Coach Lewis from the Houston TX Spring Branch Dads Club Bulldogs 1972-1976.

I never have enough time to make it work...

We just run the Gut Counter with the inside back in the Beast Wide formation.  Either UC or Gun.  That works and is faster to install.

 ~ Parker

I tried a shovel series with 3 different teams and failed miserably

Looks awesome on paper

Jeff miret had same issues as me
Tough to pull off on grass
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Online mahonz

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2017, 11:54:22 PM »
We use a similar call to Domino on stunts with any formation we run.  We have one call that involves just the Center and Guards "cannon" and another call that involves the Center Guard and Tackles; "Zulu".

We try to start out with wide splits in many of our formations early in the season; usually 6 inches with guards, 2 feet with tackles and 3 to 4 with Tight ends.  We then will narrow them down once we find out who is not quick enough to deal with stunts etc.  It seems like we always get back to 1 foot and then sloppy (tackle) and nasty split (Tight Ends) at POA. 

We normally run Down blocks on our Beast Tight and Wide Formations.  And we are usually severe angle blocking (right or Left) down with the power side line and GOLD blocking on the weakside and the weak side Tight End GOO / hinge blocks.  The play side TE is to act like a bowling pin and knocks everyone down that is posted up or he assigned a stud to block.  The BBs are to block LBs and DBs or stud to block.  The BBs will slide off and around oline to find the DBs and outside back blocks the outside contain man.  I call our base Beast Block "JAW."

0000C00  Beast Tight
000  0     

    0000C00
000             Beast Wide of Worm
            0
On occasion we will block toward play Right or Left if Defense is stacking way outside.  The BBs on Worm will block 1, 2, 3 man outside of the man on the playside TE.

We do block our Beast Fat or our Pie formation (QB UC) a little different.  In our Beast Fat we have the RBs identify the empty spot in the LOS and BBs and OLine sloppy split (3 to 4 feet) at that hole.  We can lead or run counter action with the two RBs.  The Two BBs Block through hole and play side OLine Butt Butt Split blocks at hole called.  So we basically Mega split at the hole called at LOS of Sideline.  If I have called a hole via sideline and it is filled the BB call Wild and the hole moves out a hole until empty.  If it was Gap 8 defense, play becomes a stretch sweep or a Popeye - Pop pass audible.  ~ We nickname the lineman and thats how we call the hole at los.

        x      x
x  x      x  x  x  x
  00___00C00  Beast Fat
       00
              00

In the play above the Defense has left the hole between the 2 power tackles without a man on LOS.  We would split here.  About 99% of the time the dlinemen will move with the offense to create bigger hole and no one would stunt.  We do run this formation strong side to our sideline. 

We do block out Beast counters with an Even line and BB Split at the C gaps.  Works pretty good with BBs all leading through the hole.  I know a few teams that will BB Split play side on the Beast.  I assume you could call the hole at LOS in Beast Tight or Wide like we were doing in Beast Fat.

We just won a 12U Super Bowl running Beast and this Beast Fat audible system with Big Hole Gap and BB Split blocks by the Oline.  Crazy good.  Here's a video to explain what we were doing at LOS with the Line and Blocking Backs.
https://youtu.be/WUmViozfjmc

Actual game footage
https://youtu.be/QePRA3abka8

Hope this helps,
~ Parker

Awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Great to see your opponent running some Beast as well.  8)

Great presentation. I have always enjoyed your site. Still get all your newsletters. Guys like you are really important to youth football now more than ever. Its appreciated.
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Online mahonz

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2017, 11:56:39 PM »
Oh...and never mind the tough crowd.  Saw you mentioned that in another Thread.

WE just like to discuss argue every little detail.  :)
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Online Bob Goodman

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2017, 10:44:52 AM »
Flat footed, but our S backs are generally stepping forward while the ball is in the air.
Then that's not flat-footed.  Flat-footed would mean that as he touches the ball, he's not moving his feet yet.

If S is stepping forward to meet the snap, then is he offset a little to the weak side so he's moving toward the strong side as he gets the snap?

What I'm getting at is, for H to get the ball, does any part of the "works" have to wait?  (Moving slower than usual counts as waiting.)  If it takes a while, then the quick-hitting aspect of this answer to stunts isn't there.  Maybe it'd hit quicker if S just ran it to the same hole H would.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2017, 02:16:58 PM »

Hope this helps,
~ Parker

Great stuff, coach. I'm going to look at this in depth this weekend. We have a "part" call as well, but never got to use it. Interested to see if yours works more smoothly.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2017, 02:18:17 PM »
Ive also tried a Shovel pass with about 3 or 4 teams.  I can never make it work right.  Even with returning backfields.  I always wanted to have a great shovel pass play.  Same thing with a middle screen that my team ran when I was 9.  I cant get mine to work as well as my old Coach Lewis from the Houston TX Spring Branch Dads Club Bulldogs 1972-1976.

I never have enough time to make it work...

We just run the Gut Counter with the inside back in the Beast Wide formation.  Either UC or Gun.  That works and is faster to install.

 ~ Parker

Yeah, I think we're just going to hand it off as a counter if we want to run inside.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2017, 02:25:18 PM »
Then that's not flat-footed.  Flat-footed would mean that as he touches the ball, he's not moving his feet yet.

If S is stepping forward to meet the snap, then is he offset a little to the weak side so he's moving toward the strong side as he gets the snap?

What I'm getting at is, for H to get the ball, does any part of the "works" have to wait?  (Moving slower than usual counts as waiting.)  If it takes a while, then the quick-hitting aspect of this answer to stunts isn't there.  Maybe it'd hit quicker if S just ran it to the same hole H would.

I should have said that we coach it flat footed (Ball First), but as the backs gain experience/confidence, they are moving forward.

H is a good question. We run our counter to the middle guy and the timing is good. S runs it up the middle on his own, but there's "something" missing. I can't put my finger on it, but it's just not there. An inside handoff to H would be great because he routinely goes backside anyway. I like the potential deception. Unfortunately, or H in the Fall season can't run the ball to save his life.

Also, we just don't invest much practice time in Beast. I'm starting to think this Mahonz guy is right about me over complicating a neanderthal offense.

DOMINO was broken in our bowl game. I need to fix that first before I start chasing waterfalls.
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Online Bob Goodman

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2017, 07:35:52 PM »
I should have said that we coach it flat footed (Ball First), but as the backs gain experience/confidence, they are moving forward.

H is a good question. We run our counter to the middle guy and the timing is good. S runs it up the middle on his own, but there's "something" missing. I can't put my finger on it, but it's just not there. An inside handoff to H would be great because he routinely goes backside anyway. I like the potential deception. Unfortunately, or H in the Fall season can't run the ball to save his life.
All well and good, but it's getting away from my idea of something to make the defense pay for a looping stunt with a quick hitter, and in the long run to discourage them from stunts, at least of that kind, so you can keep your blocking assignments simple.  If the defense has such a stunt on, a little quick deception just after the snap is not going to be of much help to the offense.

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2017, 11:47:03 AM »
But seriously, Gumby, or anyone, can you audible to a quick hitter snapped to your insidemost blocking back?  Everybody who's not within 3 feet of that back, climb!  That alone will burn a lot of those stunts if they have enough of a tell.  Even if they have no such tell, so no reason to check off to it, calling it once in a while or by situation tendency (the defense's, not yours) seems like a low-risk way to possibly hit some jackpots vs. a high risk defense.

Thanks for the input, Bob. I went all the way back to your original response because I got a little side tracked.

So let's say we're Beast Left and want to hit quickly off the Long Guard (center of the line).

He, the snapper and the Long Tackle guard all block their rules and everyone outside of them climb, letting the down linemen go free?

Is the goal to get the Power Tackle, TE and Short guard on to the stunting LB's?
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Online Bob Goodman

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2017, 09:09:30 PM »
Thanks for the input, Bob. I went all the way back to your original response because I got a little side tracked.

So let's say we're Beast Left and want to hit quickly off the Long Guard (center of the line).

He, the snapper and the Long Tackle guard all block their rules and everyone outside of them climb, letting the down linemen go free?

Is the goal to get the Power Tackle, TE and Short guard on to the stunting LB's?
I went back to your origiinal post where it seems the problem is this:
Quote
I have seen 2 defenses do really well vs Beast. Both had studs on our strong side and heavily featured twist stunts. I think Mike calls it "long sticking" when a guy stunts 2 gaps over. In our Bowl Game this Spring, the 9 tech stunted to the B gap and was to strong and fast to block.
So you have a DL looping inside, and presumably exchanging the hole they're plugging with either a LB or a DL slanting outside.  I was looking for you to run something that hits quick near the snapper.  It wasn't clear whether the stunts were taking place on the strong side, where the star defenders were, on the weak side, or both.  Whatever, the quick hit would be on what you'd probably consider the weak side since it's to that side of your Long Guard.  The DL slanting away (if they're stunting on the weak side) would, except possibly for one coming from across the midline of your formation, be moving away from the hole, and the looping DE would not have time to get there.  If they're stunting on the strong side, it's irrelevant because they'll never get there in time.

The goal is not to get the releasing OL onto the stunting LBs, necessarily.  If the stunt is taking the LB away from the POA, then there's no need to block them.  The point is to get bodies on whoever's left in the way!

If your S is close enough to the POA to beat a looping weak side DE to the POA, then it's simple.  If not, then you really are going to need that snap to H; there's no way S handing the ball to H gets the ball to the POA faster than keeping it would.

If the geometry doesn't work for a quick hitter like this, then the closest thing would be to have H wham block the looping DE, but the trouble is he's going to see it coming and will likely be able to close the hole even if he's blocked.

Online Bob Goodman

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2017, 11:37:46 AM »
I'd like to elaborate on this.  Looping & cross-rushing by DL is the mirror image of pulling & cross-blocking by OL, and when a LB is involved in filling for a stunt it's the mirror image of fill blocking by a back on offense.  You do it on either offense or defense to confuse the other team, bringing force to a place they weren't expecting it and from directions or angles they weren't expecting.  (Plus it's fun for the players to mix up their matchups instead of contending with the same guy across the line all game.  Do not underestimate the fun aspect of this for kids who might otherwise be bored playing a line position.)

There's 2 ways to counter such a tactic.  One is the more conservative, and that's to meet it head on.  The other is to make the opponent pay for the weakness of the tactic, which is the extra time it takes for them to get there with whoever's moving.  These possibilities were discussed in the thread on defending vs. trap.  My thought there was that with both teams using the best in-game strategy but limited by the level of execution you'd expect with 10Us, maybe even most 12Us, that rather than trying to meet the trap, you're better off taking the chance that the opponent won't be fast and proficient enough to execute the trap well, and therefore to have the player who they're trying to trap penetrate, daring them to trap him and betting that at least much of the time they won't be able to and so he'll blow up the play.

My thinking about beating the loop stunt, especially the long ones written of at the beginning of this thread, is to make the defense pay by catching them during that time the DL is looping and the other DL are slanting the other way.  They're looking to beat your OL and penetrate by a slight investment of time.  You can try to anticipate the stunt by meeting it on its own terms, but that complicates your own blocking scheme and at best just gets you back to where you would've been if no stunt were on, no advantage.  But I think you should try instead to have a quick hitter on to take advantage of the natural seam that the defense briefly opens in their line.  If they don't have the stunt on, the quick hitter can still be a decent play, but if they do you're golden.

In the case of the offense in question with their players the weak point in execution of this would be the snap (unless S is close enough and the looping DE is wide enough that S can run this effectively, but you still wouldn't get the LBs & secondary off on the wrong foot by the misdirection you could get by the short snap to H with other action by S).  So it's like the situation I described above with trap, in that the defense should dare their offense to try to execute it, counting on the ball's not getting to H cleanly much of the time.

Offline jrk5150

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2017, 10:22:06 AM »
I still struggle understanding how you deal with a DLman who simply flat out beats your OLman off the snap.  As in not even touched and is now free into the backfield. Do you just rely on one of your 2 inside beast backs to pick that up?

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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2017, 10:51:23 AM »
I still struggle understanding how you deal with a DLman who simply flat out beats your OLman off the snap.  As in not even touched and is now free into the backfield. Do you just rely on one of your 2 inside beast backs to pick that up?

This can be explained as:
-inconsistent cadence (linemen unsure when to get off the ball)
-Poor stances (using 3 point for guys who may not have the strength or the flexibility to be in the stance)
                       -Being in a poor 3 point stance will result in kids first standing straight up at the snap of the ball instead of moving forward
-Not knowing WHO to block
                       -Assuming that the kids are in a solid stance and are firing off of the ball when it's snapped, if they don't know WHO to block, they may block air or stand frozen in fear of making a mistake.

Fix these items...or if you're lazy, find the biggest, fattest kids and line them up with 0 splits in 2 point stances and when the ball is snapped ask them to not take any steps backwards and you just stunt-proofed your offense.
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Re: "Stunt Proofing" the Beast
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2017, 12:04:35 PM »
The years we were really good we always had dts that were extremely fast, aggressive and mean. In 2009 (our best team, we clocked everybody we played) our dts were among our best athletes on defense. We figured why not line up 2 of our best against the opponents worst players in almost every case. It worked great. What we had to be careful of was teams that trapped well. By playoff time we had them both playing traps and pulls very well. These two kids completely disrupted offenses. They were unblockable by most teams and demanded doubles against good teams. It is rare that a dt is your leading tackler for a game but they were on many occasions. I have had discussions/arguments with coaches here who are all for putting poor athletes on the oline. I can tell you, we usually held those teams to negative yards. It was an experiment that worked out amazingly well for us. So what I am saying is that if you want to help stunt proof any offense try putting some guys on the oline that have some actual physical talent. Because some teams might just line up their best player against your worst player and your worst player will lose every single down. I don't care how much you work on technique. It can only take you so far.