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Author Topic: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff  (Read 1241 times)

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Offline Ronin

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Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« on: July 13, 2017, 03:25:40 PM »
Has anybody used the Michigan style handoff in youth ball?  Did you like the results?  I've always been a 'put the ball in the players basket' type of coach.  I had never heard of the Michigan style until our season was getting underway last year.  Thinking about changing because I can see it being great for fakes, etc...

Offline Dimson

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 03:47:53 PM »
Has anybody used the Michigan style handoff in youth ball?  Did you like the results?  I've always been a 'put the ball in the players basket' type of coach.  I had never heard of the Michigan style until our season was getting underway last year.  Thinking about changing because I can see it being great for fakes, etc...
I know Jake uses it and swears by it.

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 03:58:54 PM »
Has anybody used the Michigan style handoff in youth ball?  Did you like the results?  I've always been a 'put the ball in the players basket' type of coach.  I had never heard of the Michigan style until our season was getting underway last year.  Thinking about changing because I can see it being great for fakes, etc...
I tried it briefly one summer during evaluations.  Kids weren't getting it in the amount of time it took them to get asymmetric (1 elbow, 1 hand) reception.  That doesn't mean they couldn't get it if it were committed to as "what we're going to teach".

Where I was in 2008 we were using an asymmetric style where the approach was the same as the "breadbasket" style, but the ball went upward thru the hole formed by the near elbow, the opposite hand forming a lid rather than a floor.  That was hard, because kids didn't (hardly even could) form the amount of space needed for the ball to get thru that hole without taking the hand connected to that elbow off their shirt.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 04:01:58 PM »
Not familiar with "Michigan style". Is that the layered Dead T hand off?
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Offline Dimson

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 04:08:53 PM »
Not familiar with "Michigan style". Is that the layered Dead T hand off?
I believe so. The layered hand off that a lot of wing-T/Dead-T teams use.

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 04:09:39 PM »
Not familiar with "Michigan style". Is that the layered Dead T hand off?

Since that's where it was popularized, I'm sure it what he meant.  (It's not like "rugby tackle", which can mean a few things, since they use a variety of tackling forms.)  "Layered" never gave me the picture.  What I'd call it is "heavy duty paper clip" or "pretzel".
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 04:12:35 PM by Bob Goodman »

Offline Ronin

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 05:15:29 PM »
Not familiar with "Michigan style". Is that the layered Dead T hand off?

Yes.  That is correct!

Offline coacharnold

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2017, 06:56:17 PM »
Not familiar with "Michigan style". Is that the layered Dead T hand off?

Yeah.  Some call it "the high cradle."  I think that's the way to go, especially in youth ball, for deception purposes.

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2017, 09:08:12 PM »
Yeah.  Some call it "the high cradle."  I think that's the way to go, especially in youth ball, for deception purposes.
Explain to me why it's more deceptive with forearms overlapping than it is with one hand under the ball, or under where the ball would be.  The only difference is where the far hand goes.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2017, 01:10:05 AM »
Since that's where it was popularized, I'm sure it what he meant.  (It's not like "rugby tackle", which can mean a few things, since they use a variety of tackling forms.)  "Layered" never gave me the picture.  What I'd call it is "heavy duty paper clip" or "pretzel".
LOL! Perfect! That's the one.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2017, 01:17:31 AM »
Yes.  That is correct!

Then "yes" to your original questions. It's all I teach now. 100% for ball security. My coaching points are:
* RB must NEVER look at the ball during the exchange. This leads to fumbled exchanges and TFLs.
* QB is responsible for putting the ball up high in the RB's chest and holding it there until the ball is ripped from his hands.
* QB must use both hands on the exchange. Slamming the ball one handed is our most common cause of fumbled exchanges.
* RB must trust the QB to deliver the ball.
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Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2017, 07:15:36 AM »
I know a hs coach that swears by it. He picked it up at a glazier years ago from Michigan T coach. He said his exchange fumbles and fumbles at first contact at the los went down drastically. It takes a little more coaching but the benefits seem to be worth it. Plus it hides the ball better so fakes are more effective.

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2017, 12:45:03 PM »
Then "yes" to your original questions. It's all I teach now. 100% for ball security. My coaching points are:
* RB must NEVER look at the ball during the exchange. This leads to fumbled exchanges and TFLs.
* QB is responsible for putting the ball up high in the RB's chest and holding it there until the ball is ripped from his hands.
* QB must use both hands on the exchange. Slamming the ball one handed is our most common cause of fumbled exchanges.
* RB must trust the QB to deliver the ball.
But those are the same coaching points I make for what this thread's calling "breadbasket style".

The difference between the heavy duty paper clip (Dead T, pretzel, layered) and the style I was teaching in 2008 is pretty subtle.  It's just that the loop formed by the near arm doesn't need to be as big in the paper clip method because the ball doesn't have to go all the way thru it, and instead is trapped by the near arm, with the far hand just going over an end of the ball instead of the far forearm having to act as a lid.  But neither of those methods give you the far forearm under the ball the way breadbasket does.

Those who've seen better ball security by switching methods can't prove the improvement isn't just due to a Hawthorne effect (Western Electric study in Cicero, Ill.), where it's just because you're giving it more att'n.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 12:46:53 PM by Bob Goodman »

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2017, 02:50:27 PM »
I think when my buddy with 30 plus years of college and hs coaching says it made a difference I'm going to take his word for it. He said the difference in coaching was negligible. One is not harder than the other, just different. In fact he said once it was installed it requires less coaching with better results. Just talked to him again about it yesterday. Still swears by it.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Michigan Style Handoff vs Breadbasket Style Handoff
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 04:02:16 PM »
But those are the same coaching points I make for what this thread's calling "breadbasket style".
Agree.
Quote
The difference between the heavy duty paper clip (Dead T, pretzel, layered) and the style I was teaching in 2008 is pretty subtle.  It's just that the loop formed by the near arm doesn't need to be as big in the paper clip method because the ball doesn't have to go all the way thru it, and instead is trapped by the near arm, with the far hand just going over an end of the ball instead of the far forearm having to act as a lid.  But neither of those methods give you the far forearm under the ball the way breadbasket does.

Those who've seen better ball security by switching methods can't prove the improvement isn't just due to a Hawthorne effect (Western Electric study in Cicero, Ill.), where it's just because you're giving it more att'n.

For me, it was just like coaching 3 point stances. I got tired of correcting RBs who had their inside hand down, so when I saw that video (come to think of it, I believe it was a youtube user called "Michigan something or other"), I gave it a try. Now, I no longer have to correct anyone on which elbow goes up or down. I also like that the "pretzel" hand off gives a more precise aiming point, but maybe that's just me.
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