Author Topic: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions  (Read 4628 times)

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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2018, 03:06:33 PM »
Hey Coach. Welcome aboard. I coach with Mahonz and have for the last 3 Fall and 3 Spring seasons, but we go back probably 12 years. MICHAEL taught the mega splits to Mahonz about 5 years ago. I was a dyed in the wool, double wing, foot to foot guy at the time, so I had to come out and see this train wreck in person. I wasn't sure what I was seeing at the time, but whatever I saw was working. A few years later, I joined Mahonz' staff and mega splits were just the way things were. The splits eventually grew on me. 2 Springs ago, I asked Mahonz if I could take over the o-line because I wanted to try some stuff.  Well . . . it worked.

I'm not trying to sell you on this because I'm still not convinced it will work for every situation. We still get stopped. It happens. We had a game this Spring where we only scored once and another where we only scored twice. Both times against some unreal talent. Dave Cisar would say that we are a select team and in the Spring, I would say that's accurate enough. We don't have the best talent in our Spring league. In Fall, our talent is average.

I think it would be something to think about given your line situation. PM Michael your phone number and he will call you. I haven't met many (any?) guys who hear about mega splits and say "Oh yeah. That sounds like it would work." We are unbalanced in base so we have 4 gaps to the long side of our snapper. Starting from C to long G, our splits are 4, 5, 6 and 7 feet. We compress them to 3, 4, 5 and 6 and we stretch them to 5, 6, 7 and 8. We experiment a lot and at one time I wasn't picky about how the linemen's splits. Certain guys would line up 10 or more feet from their inside buddy. We put the brakes on that, but no necessarily because it wasn't working. Long story.

The idea is this. Regardless of your system, rules, blocking techniques, formation or action, to run the ball, you need to move defenders. One way is to line up and push them out of the way. Some guys are harder to push than others, so you double team, angle block or use a combination of both, but at a minimum, you need to move somebody 18" from where you want to run.  Then, it gets complicated because other defenders start to move at the snap and you have to go move them, or wall them off . . .or whatever.

Another way to move a defender is to put an offensive lineman far enough out that the defender is out of the play. The bonus is that most d linemen struggle to play in space. This seems to be particularly true the bigger they are. Of course, there are exceptions, but it's hard to argue that a great defender is better in space than he is in a phone booth. Once you've moved them pre-snap, the o-lineman's task becomes much easier. You no longer have to move him because you've already done that. Now, you just have to limit where he chooses to move. What we teach our guys:
Plan A - Dominate your guy. Pancake him. Embarrass him.
Plan B - Can't dominate him? Get a stalemate. Get in his way and stay in his way.
Plan C - Can't stalemate him? He's that good? Run him where he wants to go. It's okay if he gets penetration (BLASPHEMY!) as long as we control that penetration.
Plan D - You got smoked. Make a bee line to the ball and get in on the tackle.

This is all Michael, BTW. I don't want anyone thinking I'm trying to take credit.

Anyway, it's all about changing your idea of what a "good" block is. If you ask our linemen what their job is, they will respond "to be on my man when the whistle blows" (also Michael). It takes the backs awhile to figure it out, but once they do, you are basically running a kick return or punt return from scrimmage. In my system, double teams are forbidden. To me, 2 offensive players on 1 defensive players is a waste of flesh. Offense is already playing a man down, so why complicate that situation? We block Gap On Backer for inside runs.

Pass pro? Gap on Fan. QB gets the ball out of his hands in 2 seconds. If he holds it longer than that, you will get no sympathy for what happens to you.

Anyway, something to consider for an undersized line. This Spring, our line is HUGE, but this has worked in Fall where we are generally under sized.

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Offline spidermac

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2018, 03:26:38 PM »

The idea is this. Regardless of your system, rules, blocking techniques, formation or action, to run the ball, you need to move defenders. One way is to line up and push them out of the way. Some guys are harder to push than others, so you double team, angle block or use a combination of both, but at a minimum, you need to move somebody 18" from where you want to run.  Then, it gets complicated because other defenders start to move at the snap and you have to go move them, or wall them off . . .or whatever.

Another way to move a defender is to put an offensive lineman far enough out that the defender is out of the play. The bonus is that most d linemen struggle to play in space. This seems to be particularly true the bigger they are. Of course, there are exceptions, but it's hard to argue that a great defender is better in space than he is in a phone booth. Once you've moved them pre-snap, the o-lineman's task becomes much easier. You no longer have to move him because you've already done that. Now, you just have to limit where he chooses to move. What we teach our guys:
Plan A - Dominate your guy. Pancake him. Embarrass him.
Plan B - Can't dominate him? Get a stalemate. Get in his way and stay in his way.
Plan C - Can't stalemate him? He's that good? Run him where he wants to go. It's okay if he gets penetration (BLASPHEMY!) as long as we control that penetration.
Plan D - You got smoked. Make a bee line to the ball and get in on the tackle.

This is all Michael, BTW. I don't want anyone thinking I'm trying to take credit.

Anyway, it's all about changing your idea of what a "good" block is. If you ask our linemen what their job is, they will respond "to be on my man when the whistle blows" (also Michael).

This here is good stuff, I understand the theory of mega splits, just doesn't sing to me. But the ABCD and be on your guy bit I like and consider stolen :)
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline CoachingInCincy88

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2018, 03:27:16 PM »
His profile name is Michael.

found him - thanks!

Online Dimson

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2018, 03:45:41 PM »
found him - thanks!
I will warn you. He can be a bit snarky!

Offline mahonz

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2018, 03:51:10 PM »
Great post Lar.

Funny how it makes absolutely no sense for us to move a defender post snap anymore especially you being a DWing Nut.

Moving defenders post snap is what Offenses are supposed to do. Well now I beg to differ. Run em makes so much more sense but you have to plan your Offense for this.

Wing T principles or "I" principles or even UBSW principles tend to be the perfect marriage for creating space that hinders the Defense. Yet all these years it was Spread philosophies that are used to do this. Nope....its using mega splits that creates the space at the youth level.

I will also mention here.....in the 4 Fall seasons and 4 Spring seasons with 4 different age groups and two different teams...since going mega splits using a new base Offense every season.....we have never missed the playoffs and have participated in 5 Championship games too include one tonight vs a team that has played us every season for the last 4 years. I attribute this success to mega splits and placing a very high emphasis on our Defense. These two philosophies also go hand in hand because its easier to teach mega splits and all of your OLM become fully interchangeable. Something you can never attain using a Zone scheme or a pull scheme. So...you can give your Defense more practice love without worry. 

Yes we do have a talented team every Spring....but Fall we are just another youth football Team. Or I should say "were"....after tonight its back to the Super Shrimpy Smurfs.
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline spidermac

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2018, 04:19:17 PM »
Something you can never attain using a Zone scheme or a pull scheme. So...you can give your Defense more practice love without worry. 

Beg to differ :)

When we went spread, we told the boys we were not flipping the line anymore (from our DTDW days), you will all be able to pull, you will all be able to play G & T.

We cross trained the snot out of them...I have 3 boys who can play C. One of them we want to play C, as he is our weakest blocker (we can always help him with a G if we have to)....but I can move my Tackles to Guard and vice-a-versa. I want big tackles and more athletic guards, so aside from my C, my two biggest lineman are tackles, with very very good feet...they can kick back in pass pro very well, and they are both really good at pass pro. My guards are smaller (about 20 pounds less than the tackles), but are more athletic, can move pretty well and are nasty as hell :) actually, they are all pretty nasty, my guards just more so...

That said, except for the first game, the unit played together in the same spots the entire season, my left tackle broke his wrist in a scrimmage, after missing the first game, he played in a club for a few more games. That was probably one of the best things that came out of last season, they bonded as a unit. They talked to each other pre-snap, if there were any after the whistle activity involving one of them, at least another one would step in. Our cheer coach had a pep rally, an they were doing some sort of rely involving M&M's and straws...they made sure they were on the same team, and then they names their team "The Fat and Furious".
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2018, 05:58:59 PM »
One of the most contentious topics on this forum has been the "scheme vs spirit" debate. Which is more important? Your scheme/X's and O's, etc.? or the camaraderie/spirit/heart of your team.  I used to be firmly on the "scheme" side of that argument. In fact, I used to think that you were already a bad coach if you ran anything but the double wing. You were better than average, but still inferior if you ran UBSW or Wing T.

Now, I'm completely the opposite.

As long as it is sound, matches your personnel and matches the experience/abilities of your coaching staff, what you choose to run is inconsequential compared to the "spirit" of your team..  BEAST has proven that. Move a tackle over, put three blocking backs on the end and snap it 4 yards to your RB. Lather, rinse, repeat. Same play over and over. What's more important is that your players are selfless, aggressive to the point of being scary, mentally tough and play for each other.

Single wing, double wing, wing T, I, wishbone, spread . . . all fine and good. Spend more time and energy developing the heart and soul of your team.
Mission Statement: To create a Football Family that our players and parents can't imagine not being a part of.

Offline mahonz

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2018, 06:06:32 PM »
Beg to differ :)

When we went spread, we told the boys we were not flipping the line anymore (from our DTDW days), you will all be able to pull, you will all be able to play G & T.

We cross trained the snot out of them...I have 3 boys who can play C. One of them we want to play C, as he is our weakest blocker (we can always help him with a G if we have to)....but I can move my Tackles to Guard and vice-a-versa. I want big tackles and more athletic guards, so aside from my C, my two biggest lineman are tackles, with very very good feet...they can kick back in pass pro very well, and they are both really good at pass pro. My guards are smaller (about 20 pounds less than the tackles), but are more athletic, can move pretty well and are nasty as hell :) actually, they are all pretty nasty, my guards just more so...

That said, except for the first game, the unit played together in the same spots the entire season, my left tackle broke his wrist in a scrimmage, after missing the first game, he played in a club for a few more games. That was probably one of the best things that came out of last season, they bonded as a unit. They talked to each other pre-snap, if there were any after the whistle activity involving one of them, at least another one would step in. Our cheer coach had a pep rally, an they were doing some sort of rely involving M&M's and straws...they made sure they were on the same team, and then they names their team "The Fat and Furious".

All great points but soooooo yesterday for me. You haven't Spread until you've Spread.  :)

Mega Splits is Plug and Play....literally.
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline CoachDP

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2018, 07:45:59 PM »
I wasn't sure what I was seeing at the time, but whatever I saw was working. A few years later, I joined Mahonz' staff and mega splits were just the way things were. The splits eventually grew on me. 2 Springs ago, I asked Mahonz if I could take over the o-line because I wanted to try some stuff.  Well . . . it worked.

When a defense lines up in a way that you know they're going to (based on your formation), it can be like shooting fish in a barrel.  It's when defenses don't play that game and won't line up according to what you want them to do is when things get interesting.

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2018, 07:52:49 PM »
Which is more important? Your scheme/X's and O's, etc.? or the camaraderie/spirit/heart of your team.
You have to have enough of each, & some other things.  If your team's too dispirited, they won't pay att'n enough for other things to matter.  But once you get above that minimum, I don't think extra helps much in terms of competitiveness; might improve their enjoyment, though.

If you don't have some kind of scheme, plan, or system, you'll be spinning your wheels.  But once you fill that "quota", extra won't help there either.  I don't believe all systems are equal, either, because I think there'll be some truly bad choices possible given a team's circumstances -- but there'll be many situations where there are many possible good choices.

You need to be able to teach well enough that the team doesn't bog down, so spirit & scheme aren't enough by themselves either.

Offline rozelle25

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2018, 12:00:58 PM »
Haha no worries!  I'm a coach at Milford and we're part of SOYFAI

I was in the GCYL so I won't be helpful with league trends. In 5th/6th grade I ran the DC Wing T. Our line was decent but the offense allowed me to out formation or "run away" from problem areas. You can 30 to 40 plays but the players only really need to learn 15.

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2018, 06:33:24 PM »
In 5th/6th grade I ran the DC Wing T. Our line was decent but the offense allowed me to out formation or "run away" from problem areas. You can 30 to 40 plays but the players only really need to learn 15.

 :)
Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Online Coach TonyM

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2018, 09:16:25 PM »
All great points but soooooo yesterday for me. You haven't Spread until you've Spread.  :)

Mega Splits is Plug and Play....literally.

I know you dont MPP on defense... so you plug and play a MPP kid on the oline?   I mean a true MPP kid that can barely walk and is scared of his shadow.(well, maybe not this...you can MOJO this out of him>>)

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2018, 11:03:42 PM »
I know you dont MPP on defense... so you plug and play a MPP kid on the oline?   I mean a true MPP kid that can barely walk and is scared of his shadow.(well, maybe not this...you can MOJO this out of him>>)

I can play him at short guard and it does limit us a little. I have also put him between two beasts on the long side. However, this Spring team was absolutely stacked with talent and this same kid got his reps at NT in the DC46.  I've had some "sad sacks" on the o-line since I've been coaching it. Luckily, I've never had to try and plug and play two at once.

Using my guy, "E" as an example, I was able to do a lot more with him with mega splits than I could with "normal" splits. I eventually taught him to move his feet and stick to his guy like glue. Worst case scenario, the d-lineman would move him around like a square blocking dummy. It's still harder to pursue and tackle carrying a dummy.
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: New Youth HC - Need Suggestions
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2018, 10:57:58 AM »
If I had an entire OL that was seriously under-sized, and did not have that runner who could make people miss in the backfield, I'd be seriously looking at a different way to play offense that made the D match up in space, rugby style.  Mega splits, heavily unbalanced, and look to use everybody on the OL as a receiver.  At the snap they'd have to bucket step (except for the end) with both feet so as to make any quick pass a lateral..  QB would be sidesaddle facing the strong side, so as to be able to see anyone uncovered.   If the DL plays high on the inside gap looking to cut off that pass, they're in excellent position to be blocked low.