Help MosleyTheCat keep the forum running smoothly. Please DONATE using PayPal!

Author Topic: Passing from Empty  (Read 1033 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Geek
  • Posts: 22297
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2017, 04:01:30 PM »
I checked out your system and it makes a lot of sense, my only issue is the routes seem to run into each other or end up in the same location at the end of the routes.

True

That is my tree that I like.....some of the plays are mathematical duds so they get deleted off the cheat sheet. Some get a bit redundant so delete those as well.

If you changed the tree....other play calls will become duds.

But if a trips side ends up as a dud but the twins side is a good one....use it and throw to the twins side. Who cares what happens on the trips side, for example. Same goes for visa versa.

What I have found even with the really experienced teams....you will dial into 4 -6 play calls that you like and then you can audible into a different route for the primary when need be. That film clip that shows reading the defense....most of them are all the exact same play call with the play caller audibling to the man that should be open per the design of the companion routes.... and what the D is showing pre snap.

That is the tricky part....seeing the bubble in the coverage pre snap.
What the deuce?!

Offline Dimson

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 6186
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2017, 04:13:04 PM »
Ok, how do you see the bubbles?

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Geek
  • Posts: 22297
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2017, 04:53:37 PM »
Ok, how do you see the bubbles?

Read the Front first. If there is an overload then look for the quick pass into space. Drag / Slant is usually the safe bet. OL is taught to protect inside out so one of the edge rushers is coming free. Best to throw opposite the edge rusher if you can see it so the QB isnt looking right into the face of possible trouble.

Then read LB'rs. Is there one or two? How deep are they. Are they walking up. A delay blitz is futile if your TEMPO is good. If there is one or 2 LB's then they are probably the least trained for coverage so attack them. My favorite is the DIG route for this.

Then read the DB's. Press, soft press, zone depth....one high, two high.

Vs press your quick game is probably not wise but your fades will be good. Vs soft press mid range crossers, vs Zone deep crossers and floods and you quick game. You can easily find "bubbles" by alignments. Some CB's are so poorly trained they never protect their inside....so attack inside. This is common.

Read the third level. One high....dont throw Post routes...two high then dont throw Fades. One high means one extra Defender so find him and avoid him. Two high means its chuck and duck to death underneath.

Then find your mis matches. If you get scouted then they will most likely put their best on your best and go down from there. Now its up to you to get your best open.

The best Defense vs this is actually the ones that play 7 or 8 in coverage. The QB sees all those enemy jersey's and will squeeze the football. Most will try to overload your OL....so....have a plan for that and the best plan is to take it slow and go on first sound.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 04:55:25 PM by mahonz »
What the deuce?!

Offline chucknduck

  • Copper
  • Posts: 278
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2017, 05:46:36 PM »
If you are completely out manned I can see wanting to have an empty package.  At 14 U you can definitely have a quick game.  But if you want to do more than just screens and jet I would suggest six man protection.  Of course, the qb needs to be rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, but if you use a back, you can now really split your lineman out because your back can handle an A gap blitzer if needed and so can your center.  Therefore, your guards can split those three techs wide and they will be coming from their outside. 

Run a zone beater to one side, stick for instance, and put double slants to the other side.  If they play zone, he just keys the flat defender and throws opposite.  If it is man he can work the slants or whatever man beater you have backside.

Also, if you use a TE, they really can not bring more than you can block.  If you're empty with a te, you have six potential blockers.  They can not bring seven without leaving someone uncovered. 

Just something to think about.

Offline Dimson

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 6186
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2017, 09:57:19 PM »
I like the idea of using a TE for empty.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Geek
  • Posts: 22297
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2017, 12:05:53 AM »
The only "issue" using a TE is when the OT has to pass pro around him.

Requires a pretty athletic move. You'd think pushing an edge rusher away from the QB would help...and it does....but the OT has to be very quick off the ball. Its some weird geometry with the edge rusher coming at speed quicker that the OT blocking him.

BUT...the TE position is gold.
What the deuce?!

Offline Dimson

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 6186
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2017, 12:52:04 AM »
The only "issue" using a TE is when the OT has to pass pro around him.

Requires a pretty athletic move. You'd think pushing an edge rusher away from the QB would help...and it does....but the OT has to be very quick off the ball. Its some weird geometry with the edge rusher coming at speed quicker that the OT blocking him.

BUT...the TE position is gold.
The kid who would be playing next to the TE is super athletic, I am not overly worried about that. The kid I have in mind for the TE will be a great TE, if he doesn't win the starting QB spot.

Offline joshv155

  • Gold
  • Posts: 3331
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Positions
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2017, 10:52:40 AM »
I want to put in an empty package this season using MH's offense but only after I get the base stuff working. My QB is also my best runner. I wanted to have *maybe* 2 pass concepts that work against he cover 3'ish youth secondaries we see. No one ever teaches their defense to cover the flat. Just doesn't happen, so the goal was to run some simple clear out flat/shallow drag into the opposite flat concept.

The main goal was to get my QB to run power from Empty off of jet action, or sweep or even possible a really simple RPO. QB sweep look if the DE comes dump it to the H behind him. Will we get there ? I dunno. But I don't want to just have this kid hand off over and over. We will pass a decent amount but trying to think of ways to keep the ball in his hands.
Passio Bellator

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Geek
  • Posts: 22297
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2017, 11:24:25 AM »
We will pass a decent amount but trying to think of ways to keep the ball in his hands.

https://youtu.be/fRpQZnuBg9c
What the deuce?!

Offline Dimson

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 6186
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2017, 12:20:23 PM »
I want to put in an empty package this season using MH's offense but only after I get the base stuff working. My QB is also my best runner. I wanted to have *maybe* 2 pass concepts that work against he cover 3'ish youth secondaries we see. No one ever teaches their defense to cover the flat. Just doesn't happen, so the goal was to run some simple clear out flat/shallow drag into the opposite flat concept.

The main goal was to get my QB to run power from Empty off of jet action, or sweep or even possible a really simple RPO. QB sweep look if the DE comes dump it to the H behind him. Will we get there ? I dunno. But I don't want to just have this kid hand off over and over. We will pass a decent amount but trying to think of ways to keep the ball in his hands.
What I plan to do is to have 1 play with multiple options. So essentially 3 or 4 plays in one and run the play according to how the defense lines up and reacts. My only issue is right now I have to find out what I want to do with my super fast kid. Do I put him at QB and use him to run off the jet action or do have him run the jet or have him on the trips side and run smoke/sucker. Lots of possibilities with just one play.

Offline pirate1590

  • Copper
  • Posts: 95
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2017, 11:19:45 PM »
I would be praying in all honesty- if I see empty loose-


C--$-S---L---L--------S---C
-------E---T---T----E
X-------T-G-C-G-T---------Y
--W-H-----------------F
--------------Q------------

Who do you block? I am in the cover 3- I have the MLB sitting in the right flat all the way- the other LB has an automatic blitz- I have the two studs covering the middle and rotating on snap- free safety and corners sink into cover three. You have 5 blocking 6- a free rusher and the only place the ball is going quickly is the flats which is in front of us- your QB is gonna get killed.

If you are going to run anything out of empty I would stick with this formation.



----Y-T-G-C-G-T-U---------------X
------------Q-------------W---Z-

You have 8 in the box and you can run W on Jet Sweeps etc- you can pull your guards and run your QB- You have trips with 8 blocking and have protection. This is a bear to defend.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Geek
  • Posts: 22297
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2017, 10:48:19 AM »
I would be praying in all honesty- if I see empty loose-


C--$-S---L---L--------S---C
-------E---T---T----E
X-------T-G-C-G-T---------Y
--W-H-----------------F
--------------Q------------

Who do you block? I am in the cover 3- I have the MLB sitting in the right flat all the way- the other LB has an automatic blitz- I have the two studs covering the middle and rotating on snap- free safety and corners sink into cover three. You have 5 blocking 6- a free rusher and the only place the ball is going quickly is the flats which is in front of us- your QB is gonna get killed.

If you are going to run anything out of empty I would stick with this formation.



----Y-T-G-C-G-T-U---------------X
------------Q-------------W---Z-

You have 8 in the box and you can run W on Jet Sweeps etc- you can pull your guards and run your QB- You have trips with 8 blocking and have protection. This is a bear to defend.

How do you get out of your WT6 on the fly?....quite possibly the worst D you could run vs Empty wide.

Are your DG's now your studs roaming the middle or the DB's dropping into cover 3?

It seems like you would have to mass substitute or do some serious cross training. 
What the deuce?!

Offline coacharnold

  • Copper
  • Posts: 340
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2017, 02:28:40 PM »
I would be praying in all honesty- if I see empty loose-


C--$-S---L---L--------S---C
-------E---T---T----E
X-------T-G-C-G-T---------Y
--W-H-----------------F
--------------Q------------

Who do you block? I am in the cover 3- I have the MLB sitting in the right flat all the way- the other LB has an automatic blitz- I have the two studs covering the middle and rotating on snap- free safety and corners sink into cover three. You have 5 blocking 6- a free rusher and the only place the ball is going quickly is the flats which is in front of us- your QB is gonna get killed.

I'm not sure how you are rushing 6:

CBs and FS are rotating deep to Cov. 3
MLB goes to the right flat.
2 other LBs are covering the middle and rotating.
That's 6 in coverage, which only leaves 5 to rush.

Slants should work against that pretty well if you can get the ball out, especially with the CBs and FS bailing so quickly to get to deep zones.

I agree about the double tight thing you drew up being a nice Empty look, but if you try running Jet from that there's no one there to block the force player and allow him to get to the edge, so you're limited to just running the QB straight ahead, return motion with a WR back to the strong side, or throwing the ball.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

  • Moderator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 11048
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Positions
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2017, 08:18:34 AM »
If you are going to run anything out of empty I would stick with this formation.



----Y-T-G-C-G-T-U---------------X
------------Q-------------W---Z-

You have 8 in the box and you can run W on Jet Sweeps etc- you can pull your guards and run your QB- You have trips with 8 blocking and have protection. This is a bear to defend.
Why have X on the line? Make it even harder to defend and make U eligible. You'll have to read the force player from shotgun to run jet as Coach Arnold points out. I wouldn't count on the guard getting there.

Offline Dimson

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 6186
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Passing from Empty
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2017, 08:56:27 AM »
Why have X on the line? Make it even harder to defend and make U eligible. You'll have to read the force player from shotgun to run jet as Coach Arnold points out. I wouldn't count on the guard getting there.
Also, my purpose for going empty is to run jet with as many blockers to the POA that I can have and in that formation I can not run jet.