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Author Topic: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.  (Read 993 times)

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Offline CoachUCS

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Re: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2017, 02:31:27 PM »
i always told the o linemen that at the beginning of the game, every DT and DE thought they were the predators, but by half time, we were going to teach them that in fact, they were mistaken.  they are the hunted, the OL are the hunters.  one of my many attempts to instill an aggressor mind set in the OL.

For what it's worth, I think this is along the right lines.  Personally, I don't bother talking too much about the other team and their mindset, because I don't really know for sure.  We'll do our best to hit from the first whistle to the last.  I recall saying many times over this last season that I do not even care about the scoreboard, I'm counting hits.  It's that I believe strongly that the most physical team will prevail.  There are times where we gave up yards to truck a defender.  To me, that says more than us dancing through linebackers to the open field.
If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.

Offline parone

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Re: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2017, 04:08:38 PM »
i believe the more physical team wins as well, all things being equal.  certainly in the UBSW, physicality is a must.

but honestly, my mind games with my OL had more to do with the mental aspect.  a lack of aggression on the OL is really damaging-and i've seen plenty of it-though i'd like to think less and less of it on the lines i coached.

i'm not sure what it is.  OL kids tend to be big(though not always!!).  maybe those big kids are told their whole life to be careful of other kids because they are so large.  maybe OL kids are afraid of missing blocks.  i really can't pinpoint it.  but a lot of OL kids, particularly back in youth, man, it was rough to get em to show a little nasty!  i could teach the steps, the coming out low, head on the right side.  and often that'd be enough(barlely).  but to get em to get nasty, i really had to work with some of them.  i don't mean dirty.  i mean nasty.  wanting to dominate.  wanting to grind em.  i made sure to give them positive reinforcement when they did it though.  wouldn't they beam!!  i think they thought no one was watching. 

one time one of my guys came off and said, 'did you see that run by jimmy?  he made 8 guys miss!'  i told him no, hadn't seen it.  'why?'  i don't watch the skinnys i told him.  too boring.  he had no idea if i was serious or not, and i never clarified it(in truth, it really was a hell of a run)
Dream Big.  Work Hard. Stay Humble.

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2017, 07:35:03 PM »
on a less mental, more physical note, i wanted to ask you this about being physical in a pass oriented offense-

did you have a harder time selling it?

--To the players?  No.  They loved it.  They wanted to be "tough." To the coaches?  Yes.  They thought it wasn't neccessary.  They thought it was "too much."  They were afraid that kids wouldn't want to play because of it.  We had 57 players on JV and didn't cut anyone.

pass blocking is inherently less physical/aggressive than run blocking.

--I dunno about that.  Our linemen wanted to hit anybody, anything at anytime.  I didn't sell them on "pass blocking" as opposed to "run blocking."  We just hit and looked to take our opponent down.  We weren't strong.  Most of our O-Line were freshmen.  We weren't really physical, in the sense that we could push others around.  We couldn't.  But we were tough, we got after it and we never coasted.  Probably the least talented O-Line I've ever had, but the best group of guys ever.

how did you overcome that?  or was it no obstacle at all due to your program?

--It was only an "obstacle" with the staff; never the players.  I don't know that I did "overcome" it.  I battled it all season long with them.  But I know we wouldn't have had the season we had without the mental and physical toughness we had.  I loved coaching these players; they gave great effort, were supremely confident and were mentally and physically tough.   

--Five of our games were determined by six points, or less.  We had only two blowout games (a 37-0 win over a 3-5 team and a 32-6 win over an 0-8 team).  But even our season finale was only a 4-point win over a 1-8 team.  We won games because of turnover margin (31-16 in our favor).  In four of our wins, turnovers with the game on the line were the difference in winning.  Without those turnovers, we go from 8-1 to 4-5.  In our only loss, both teams had 3 turnovers so there was no advantage for us.  And without that advantage, we didn't win.  Physicality got us the football back time and time again.

--Dave



No Expectations.  Only Demands.
The P.A.I.N! Program--Physicality/Aggression/Intensity/NOW!

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2017, 07:56:11 PM »
a lack of aggression on the OL is really damaging-and i've seen plenty of it-though i'd like to think less and less of it on the lines i coached.

i'm not sure what it is.  OL kids tend to be big(though not always!!).  maybe those big kids are told their whole life to be careful of other kids because they are so large.  maybe OL kids are afraid of missing blocks.  i really can't pinpoint it.

I can probably pinpoint it for you.  Kids (even at high school age) may not have the confidence individually, that they do collectively as a group.  Ask a player to perform well on his own can be much more difficult than when asked to double or triple-team an opponent. 

Today at practice, I was going over blocking rules for the o-line.  I had each player individually (starting from fit) drive me backwards (based on his rule).  Individually, they were marshmallows.  But when I combined them to make double and triple-teams against me and added the ball-carrier right behind them, not only did they move me, they were really nasty about it. 

The great thing about football is how it teaches individuals to work together as a team.  Yet we seem to forget this as coaches and try to have our players perform individually.  Teach the game through the strength of the game (which is its team-building component).  Teach the players collectively instead of individually and I believe you will see a difference.  I know I have.

--Dave
No Expectations.  Only Demands.
The P.A.I.N! Program--Physicality/Aggression/Intensity/NOW!

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2017, 09:17:26 PM »
I'm a big fan of spinner but I've got to tell you that it's slower developing and riskier than the double wing (in my opinion).  You're taking more depth to actually show the defense the spin and those are yards you have to make up.  I could be mistaken but I believe that the spinner is actually represented in just about every modern offense with the QB executing a reverse pivot.
I wouldn't say that much, but at least in the (Markham style) DW the toss-trap-counter-keep sequence is a QB full spin.  Similarly some fly offenses.  We know Mahonz likes QB full spin action to produce a 3- or sometimes 4-back mesh.

But there are also a lot of other ways in single wing as well as other offenses to achieve a lot of misdirection.  In UBSW and UBDW the backs were positioned a certain way, and then someone thought, with them starting there, if this one takes the snap, then we can...and full spin series was born.  It wasn't designed originally for that purpose, it just happened to work decently.

Offline parone

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Re: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2017, 06:12:46 AM »
i've always wondered why more teams with an athletic qb don't use at least a reverse pivot.

we played a wing t team once.  they had a very quick small qb and a very physical fullback.  their best play was reverse pivot, either fake or give on the weakside dive to the FB.  our ILBs had to honor it.(the fakes were excellent, and with a big line and small qb, it's tough to see). 

if the qb kept, he'd sprint out to the strong side, te blocked down, T released to the inside to hit the MLBs, they'd option the DE or load block him on a straight keep.

it was a bitch to defend. 

and we aren't even talking about having to coach a spin with mesh points-just a reverse pivot!

if i ran an under center offense,  you can bet i'd install that.  it could be done quickly and easily.  but i've never seen it again.
Dream Big.  Work Hard. Stay Humble.

Offline coacharnold

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Re: Toss sweep and toss power question and comment.
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2017, 11:28:17 AM »
i've always wondered why more teams with an athletic qb don't use at least a reverse pivot.

we played a wing t team once.  they had a very quick small qb and a very physical fullback.  their best play was reverse pivot, either fake or give on the weakside dive to the FB.  our ILBs had to honor it.(the fakes were excellent, and with a big line and small qb, it's tough to see). 

if the qb kept, he'd sprint out to the strong side, te blocked down, T released to the inside to hit the MLBs, they'd option the DE or load block him on a straight keep.

it was a bitch to defend. 

and we aren't even talking about having to coach a spin with mesh points-just a reverse pivot!

if i ran an under center offense,  you can bet i'd install that.  it could be done quickly and easily.  but i've never seen it again.

The reverse pivot is great on toss actions, even without a FB going opposite the TB.  You can even use it in the Pistol on toss plays.

Reverse pivot with a bootleg off that gives you what is basically a spin action in the backfield.