Ace Spread formation, and Defending the delayed draw

[Dirk]

We haven't played a game yet, but in defensive scrimmages we have thrown many formations at the 4-3. The kids are getting better at lining up (1/2 the battle), and they all do proper 1st2-3 steps. Used to run DC4-6, but coaching older kids (middle school now after a cpl yrs off) and the passing we see, doesn't fit DC46 well with the talent we have.

A play that caused me to pause was the delayed draw, on a 2x2 ace shotgun formation. The DE's get chipped enough to just barely miss the RB (DEs still learning to keep outside leverage, and maybe they kill this once they get better). The DT are doing a good job at pinching the A gaps, but the B gap does open a bit. 

Should the WS move up closer (mirror depth of the RB to the offenses preferred side, while having the MLB shift slightly toward the other B gap? Current set up is closer to diagram in manual.

Thanks for your thoughts

[DumCoach]

A spread has the ability to stretch the safeties:


                                      O O
                          O                             O
               O                 O O 0 O O                  O
                 C             E  T        T  E              C
                            S           M            W
                          SS                         WS

That makes it hard for them to cover "draw" even if you move them up.  I'm assuming on "draw" the center doesn't come out, giving Mike a pass read?

OK!  If so, first the DT's, in smacking that guard, keep their outside arm free and look inside as they drive on the guard (Looking inside after they make contact.).  This makes them better able to defend "B".

Next, you can have the DE's, when there's no TE, attack the OT instead of the TE like this:


                                      O O
                          O                             O
               O                 O O 0 O O                  O
                 C           E/   T         T  \E             C
                            S           M            W
                          SS                         WS
 
Here, both DE's are tilted at the OT's (Rather like the DT's but not so steep).  They hit the OT's on their outside shoulder from tilt and then gun into the backfield. They are going through him and not around him.  By striking at an angle, they push the OT towards "B" gap.  The OT, in return, drives the DE less distance outside.  The result is a smaller "B" gap.

If you teach both of these suggestions, "B" gets squeezed down from both sides.  That should solve the problem.  Get back with us either way.   

By the way, is the "Ace" back drawing to the opposite side "B" gap or near side "B"?                                         

And how are things going otherwise?

[DumCoach]

You also have this option:


                                                     O  O
                                      O                                    O
                           O                   O  O  0  O  \O  /                 O
                                                                T  \E
                                                                     \W

This is an OLBer blitz.  The DE lines up on outside shoulder of OT and then slants outside at about 45 degrees at the slot.  As the OT goes to block out on him and the DT drives the guard inside, the OLBer shoots the "B" gap from 2 yards back.  The very gap they're using to get a runner out, you use to get a blitzer in.   

Hopefully, it's right into the draw as I assume the back is hitting opposite B gap.

[Dirk]

Overall all is well, we have 15 kids ready to bang, of course we have another 15 that don't quite get it yet, but slowly coming along. Bottom 7 kids are just a liability, they don't want to be there (best guess is Dad failed at football, but will live thru their kids=>hate seeing this since the kids just get set up for failure. They can't get good at something they really don't want to do). Our Middle school program has no cuts, and wants kids to see the field (not a hard minimum play count, but its hanging out there)

We have 2 RB on team who run 4.6 40's, nice quick feet, able to cut well (one gets defense, one doesn't), but when we scrimmage against them at RB, the "lesser"talented kids do cause issues, so I'm excited to see how it will all come together come gametime.

Biggest 2 issues, getting the DT to hit G HARD, then moving into backfield. We get DT just shooting gap, and making plays, which get other coaches all excited, but gives me nightmares, TRAP. Been almost yelling at assistant coaches at times about, no no no....they have to make hard contact with G EVERY TIME. Assistants are all vounteers, so its a whole other coaching job.

Other issue is the STONE. We ran alot of stones in the DC46, at younger ages, but we don't get it done well now. We will keep after it, but I get too much 1/2 speed effort, which end badly. Changing kids and it will work itself out.

I like the DE hitting the OT, we played with the idea a bit, but it slows down the pressure on a pass, guess its pick your poison.

Thanks

[Dirk]

Stone is coming along, we have 3 sets who do it well. What will likely be our starters, are beginning to understand patience. The CB/DE on stone have to be VERY disciplined and patient, because if an assistant starts the rah rah rah, go tackle the BC, and they don't stone, you will give up a big pass sooner or later.

We have a cpl OLB who flow and fill exceptionally, but again the next group is getting assistant coaches  rah rah rah when they make a tackle out of position. This is clearly our problem at the moment, having assistants go and do there own thing. I have gone to the head coach, and alerted him to this issue and anyone coaching MUST not allow other coaches to instruct the players in alternative methods of playing a position!!!!

Being Def Coord was suppose to be a work back into Head Coaching(took a break due to health), but jeez its almost worse. Of course I was at 4-6th graders last coaching stint, and now working  7-8 graders. Nothing worse than fighting to get the kids to buy in and then having joe volunteer coach tell them to try something else.

The issue is with DT play. We have a 4 kids who get it, and have been working with the kids who probably should not be playing (at least it doesn't look like they want to). My hard fast rule on DT play is if they cannot engage the Gaurds outside shoulder (for whatever reason), those player will bearcrawl into Gs or sit on bench. It hurts badly when a coach tell those same kids go ahead try a spin move (all they do is spin and run/get driven into LBs).
ARGGHH

On a good note, we get to get evaluated/helped by Univ of Michigan assistants later this week (they will be helping out for a practice). Yes we are lucky!! The kids should have one of those lifetime experiences to remember (a few of the players hopefully will visit as well).

_________________________________________________

I would be willing to help format and collect the various drills everyone uses and make a PDF to post if that would be helpful. I'm not sure where a got a nice one (DC-46? or Jack Gregory DW) but it is 50 or so drills that have a nice set up, state coaching points to cover. Let me know if that would be helpful and I could make a separate topic for drills and 'steal' everyones great ideas (looking to make it specific for DC-43 instruction)

[DumCoach]

Stone is coming along, we have 3 sets who do it well. What will likely be our starters, are beginning to understand patience. The CB/DE on stone have to be VERY disciplined and patient, because if an assistant starts the rah rah rah, go tackle the BC, and they don't stone, you will give up a big pass sooner or later.

Yes.  The TE must go backwards.  How are you deciding when the DE can come off?

We have a cpl OLB who flow and fill exceptionally,

How do you have them playing?

The issue is with DT play...  It hurts badly when a coach tell those same kids go ahead try a spin move (all they do is spin and run/get driven into LBs).
ARGGHH

    What knuckleheads!

I would be willing to help format and collect the various drills everyone uses and make a PDF to post if that would be helpful. I'm not sure where a got a nice one (DC-46? or Jack Gregory DW) but it is 50 or so drills that have a nice set up, state coaching points to cover. Let me know if that would be helpful and I could make a separate topic for drills and 'steal' everyones great ideas (looking to make it specific for DC-43 instruction)

I think that's great!

[searider86]

"I would be willing to help format and collect the various drills everyone uses and make a PDF to post if that would be helpful. I'm not sure where a got a nice one (DC-46? or Jack Gregory DW) but it is 50 or so drills that have a nice set up, state coaching points to cover. Let me know if that would be helpful and I could make a separate topic for drills and 'steal' everyones great ideas (looking to make it specific for DC-43 instruction)"



I think that's great!

I concur

[Belebuch]

You also have this option:


                                                     O  O
                                      O                                    O
                           O                   O  O  0  O  \O  /                 O
                                                                T  \E
                                                                     \W

This is an OLBer blitz.  The DE lines up on outside shoulder of OT and then slants outside at about 45 degrees at the slot.  As the OT goes to block out on him and the DT drives the guard inside, the OLBer shoots the "B" gap from 2 yards back.  The very gap they're using to get a runner out, you use to get a blitzer in.   

Hopefully, it's right into the draw as I assume the back is hitting opposite B gap.

Maybe its just been a long night but wouldnt that be an illegal formation? OT isnt covered, or is he elgible? 2 wrs on the line makes 1 also inelgible. i may be wrong like i said its been a long shift.

[Dirk]

How are you deciding when the DE can come off?

Anytime we stone;
DE must make TE step back before anything else, but he reads the thru nearest back, and if the near back/ other backs (we see lots of criss-cross action) are heading toward him or to his inside, he releases to engage closest back. We still have him attack the outside shoulder (relative to the sideline, we don't want him to cross face toward the center).
DE on a pass is to make TE step back and seek and destroy QB (always keeping outside leverage).

How do you have OLB playing?

On the runs we see primarily, they are into B gap, or flowing to sideline. I have them mirroring the RB/R they have as a key for 2 steps. If their RB commits to blocking, they are free to play football =>no direct assignment (with attention to QB until he commits to run/pass). If he is free and it is a roll out to the OLB side, he has flat coverage to his side. He can blitz (keeping outside leverage as always), but that is a situation decision made by OLB. We do not hammer him when he decides poorly (want them to have confidence to make a mistake. I have had coaches yell at kids for making wrong decision which ended up having the kids make no decision =>and that is the worse thing you can have happen on the field!!!. Repeated mistakes are another matter and if that is happening you have wrong position for that kid)
We have them attacking their key, if that key wants to cross the LOS (with or without ball, we call it greeting the player. Still have work to do on hammering a back crossing line, but we see many plays where the RB slides thru B gap and then drags across the field to catch a pass or block for a cut back, so we don't want him coming across the line ever). If you hammer kids when they don't have the ball, then tend to exert less effort in their assignments, and that makes defense very easy to play.

We had our 1st mini scrimmages and we allowed about 4 1st downs in about an hour of defense play. So outstanding beginning. However our CBs are slow at reading the sweep, still working on this. We may cross train CB and DE depending on talent matchup and switch them up from inside/outside alignment when stoning. Our DEs are bigger and quick, really causing mayhem (as long as they get TE stepping back 1st, if they crash they leave the CB really out of position on a TE release =>we want to blitz the inside stoner from time to time(not implemented yet), so we will need to change how the CB plays when that happens)

The delayed draw still a concern, but MLB has been getting a steady diet of that play in practice, and he is getting better at killing it. MLB tends to want to blitz on this read, we have slowed that down by having him take the mini-backsteps (similar to what safety does when in 2x2 ace back formation), he then "closes the open door" in which ever A/B gap that opens. Safety play identifies this better now too. Still could be hurt by it, but not as big a concern as it was. Its going to be a personal matchup as season goes forward (we have radically different MLB players to use; power, average size smart, small tough snot, and new player who has power/speed).

So far looking good!

Bigger test tonight, but won't be able to get back to update here for a day or 2

[Dirk]

Ok played equal competition team and starters against starters, our D was above average. Still work to do and min play kids are still an issue (but they did bear crawl!!! ugly but they did take up space in middle). Traps were all losses for offense. We picked 3 screens for TDs. Had one long 40 pass completed, but it was a perfect throw and catch (cb did not match up well and we changed him after that and we reinserted him later and he picked a long throw). We sacked QB 4 times, and messed with his timing on most passes. Sweep is still an issue (see below) and while the team we played never got anything in middle, I saw some opportunities they did not take advantage of. We have 2 good MLB, ones a stud and the other is small bulldog who never stops (if he had more size, he would be tracking to play D1 college), but the next 2 are not ready to play (slow learners/readers)

The Full house Tee with criss cross actions, allowed a quick RB the edge. Safety stopped the play but after 4-8 yds. This is a coaching issue, as we have not done many reps against the full house tee (will fix that this week).

I am looking at having the OLB read both closest back and middle back in full house tee to stop the criss cross action from getting flow away from playside. I don't like having the safety almost required to crash to the edge on that action. We saw;
....................................................lRB.....RB.....rRB
..............................................................QB
.............R..................................T.....G.....C.....G......T...........................................................R
..............CB..........................DE.....DT..............DT......DE..................................................CB
.............................................................MLB
....................................OLB...............................................OLB
..............................................WS............................SS

The wide side (R in diagram) would run a slant (maybe to crack OLB/SS, but we don't let that happen), the rRB would run at left B gap (fake), and RB and lRB would sweep to the left. The right OLB would move toward the left Bgap (mirroring his key), the right DE would hit outside shoulder of T and head for rRB (nearest RB) which took him out of play [maybe he should key nearest/deepest RB in full house tee?], but not sure that would fix the issue. If we had OLB do a dbl key, #2 (as always) and the next back (key rRB and RB), and key who ever comes toward his side (if misdirection/criss cross action), it seems we bring the OLB up/out quicker. I don't see too much to break the system (if the QB gives to rRB on the offtackle to left, the left OLB should have a good view of that, since that RB runs in front of the other RBs, which he should be following) and WS is coming up on that play as well. No lead blockers should make it easy to identify, while we get edge pressure on the sweep to the right.

Thoughts?

[DumCoach]

Ok played equal competition team and starters against starters, our D was above average. Still work to do and min play kids are still an issue (but they did bear crawl!!! ugly but they did take up space in middle). Traps were all losses for offense. We picked 3 screens for TDs. Had one long 40 pass completed, but it was a perfect throw and catch (cb did not match up well and we changed him after that and we reinserted him later and he picked a long throw). We sacked QB 4 times, and messed with his timing on most passes.

 

I am looking at having the OLB read both closest back and middle back in full house tee to stop the criss cross action from getting flow away from playside. I don't like having the safety almost required to crash to the edge on that action. We saw;
....................................................lRB.....RB.....rRB
..............................................................QB
.............R..................................T.....G.....C.....G......T...........................................................R
..............CB..........................DE.....DT..............DT......DE..................................................CB
.............................................................MLB
....................................OLB...............................................OLB
..............................................WS............................SS

The wide side (R in diagram) would run a slant (maybe to crack OLB/SS, but we don't let that happen), the rRB would run at left B gap (fake), and RB and lRB would sweep to the left. The right OLB would move toward the left Bgap (mirroring his key),

That's not his key.  Right side OLBer keys lRB (Farthest back).  This gives you an automatic cross key.  You could also have played the OLBer's up on the LOS against this and 4 steps outside, tilted at far back since they had no zone pass coverage responsibility on this play (No one off the LOS outside them.).

the right DE would hit outside shoulder of T and head for rRB (nearest RB) which took him out of play [maybe he should key nearest/deepest RB in full house tee?], but not sure that would fix the issue.

I have him getting to the heels of that OT with no key at all, reading inside to outside, looking for kick coming first and QB on pass second.  I don't key him to a back or he'll get kicked and, if it's pass, I want him gunning for the QB as sometimes we only bring four on pass.  With no kick coming, it was safe to go inside. 

If we had OLB do a dbl key, #2 (as always) and the next back (key rRB and RB), and key who ever comes toward his side (if misdirection/criss cross action), it seems we bring the OLB up/out quicker.

Let's look at the play:

                                      O--> O--> O
                                              O    /          /
                    O               O  O  0  O  O      \         O
                      C       S   E   T          T   E    W    C
                                               M
                                      SS             WS           

I have moved OLBer's up on LOS with instruction to key far back but allow no back outside them. 

I show the rHB running at "B" gap ("/").  This pulls WS up on him. 
M is keying RB in red for play direction so M is running right.  There is a possibility of collision between M and WS.
W is keying farthest back (lHB in bold).  He has his read coming towards him plus red RB, both of which tell him to turn outside.  So he has taken about two steps in towards lHB (He should still be 2 steps outside OT) and then turned out to run down the play whereas as you had him turn in.    SS is also in pursuit as he is keyed to lHB in bold.

I don't see too much to break the system (if the QB gives to rRB on the offtackle to left, the left OLB should have a good view of that, since that RB runs in front of the other RBs, which he should be following) and WS is coming up on that play as well.

Agreed that WS is tracking this play.  M will track it also if he sees the handoff.  E will try.

No lead blockers should make it easy to identify, while we get edge pressure on the sweep to the right.

If you change W to reading near and middle back instead of far back, if near and middle back run cross buck and back in bold takes handoff running left, you only have SS on him.

By keying W to far back, W will chase that sweep whether one or two backs go the other way (inside).

Thoughts?

Why did you have OLBer key near back?

[Dirk]

We had OLB key near back because trying to keep it simple, same basic rules all the time (2nd back from outside), but keying across the line of backs, does make the end goal better and simpler.

We have a cpl (2nd string) OLB that over think everything, and the more we change things, the slower they get going. If they get confused and rushed (where the play is more just play football than check this and that) the better they play. They both have great instincts, but are are new to contact football, so they need a bunch of time to get the bigger picture.

Our DEs are dumb as a doorknobs, but athletic and mad at the world. So they just need a target, we started having them go toward deepest back, but they would overrun play (way too deep), so we moved their target in. We will continue to adjust this, and just lots of reps will probably solve the issue. On pass, they have been outstanding getting to QB, but the trade off has been on criss-cross run action, they get too deep or too shallow.

On defense, I look to have the players think about where to line up, what they key to move them the first 2 steps they take, and then just play. We rep various scenarios to death, so the play becomes more instinctive to the players. We have outstanding outside leverage from just about everyone and above average tackling, still work to do and must maintain drilling all the basics every practice, but feeling good except for our injuries...which continue to mount. We have depth, but like the above OLBs, many have not played much.

Game 1 is sat and the team is not well coached, and lacking talent, so we should be able to work with the guys down the depth chart, but you never know.

[Belebuch]

We had a similiar situation tonight. In an attempt to teach my dts who were shooting upfield a lesson i had a qb -me- do a draw that went for about 15 yds before anyone noticed. This scared my ac's to death and was The topic of a heated discussion after practice as well
Ofcourse im HC so it went my way but now i believe this is something that will come up again

[Dirk]

Well if th DTs don't engage the G by default, your in a world of hurt in middle. The MLB has a 2 gap responsibility, and a TB running a delayed draw out of a spread formation will be next to impossible to defend if MLB gets a pass read. He backs up, then will attack, but has to guess or wait for the TB to pick his gap and he then has 3 Off Linemen  to deal with. The best thing is the TB outruns his blockers and Safeties make the play, but thats for big yards.

We have drilled this to death, and the rule is the Guards must take a step into A gap to balance BEFORE any push into back field. A standstill if preferred over the shoot the gap play. If a standstill, and DT is attacking G on his angle, A gap is pinched down, B gap has DT in it (OT is usually into DT by most blocking rules), so the play is either in a smaller A gap (which our LB can easily play when no Off Guards getting into him) or bouncing to C gap => which has the OLB on almost a perfect angle to see it when lined up properly with a Safety coming hard to the inside cutback. Drill it enough and the LBs get very good at playing this (yes it can be a 2-3 yd gainer), but can't run an offense depending on this play. The coaches have to understand that the DT 1st job is to keep the middle offensive line away from LBs (at least it is for us). LB like not having to fight a off line block while flowing.

We have made the over call by DT who is on same side as the RB next to the QB, which messes up blocking rules (we move that DT to the C-G gap and have him drive the G into the OT (as a stunt call) which gets us a single A gap that opens up to invite the RB into (MLB stacks behind the DT)

Not many coaches at middle school (or lower) have patience play the Ace back draw in spread (they all want to throw the ball down field). In 2x2 ace back, we play CB man on #1 eligible, and LBs in  under Zone (we tell them 10 yds around their starting position, and the Safeties have 2 deep Zone. Still working on zone, but it usually has the receiver bookended (defender under and over him), which make the throw have to be very accurate. Again not many middle schoolers can make that pass with out DE's coming hard.

We are not ready to add the OLB blitz, but have played with it some in the 2x2 ace back. Has potential with the blitz side safety rotating up. Zone coverage has to be solid 1st, looks like we could get a big sack out of it.

[DumCoach]

Well if th DTs don't engage the G by default, your in a world of hurt in middle. The MLB has a 2 gap responsibility, and a TB running a delayed draw out of a spread formation will be next to impossible to defend if MLB gets a pass read. He backs up, then will attack, but has to guess or wait for the TB to pick his gap and he then has 3 Off Linemen  to deal with. The best thing is the TB outruns his blockers and Safeties make the play, but thats for big yards.

We have drilled this to death, and the rule is the Guards must take a step into A gap to balance BEFORE any push into back field. A standstill if preferred over the shoot the gap play. If a standstill, and DT is attacking G on his angle, A gap is pinched down, B gap has DT in it (OT is usually into DT by most blocking rules), so the play is either in a smaller A gap (which our LB can easily play when no Off Guards getting into him) or bouncing to C gap => which has the OLB on almost a perfect angle to see it when lined up properly with a Safety coming hard to the inside cutback. Drill it enough and the LBs get very good at playing this (yes it can be a 2-3 yd gainer), but can't run an offense depending on this play. The coaches have to understand that the DT 1st job is to keep the middle offensive line away from LBs (at least it is for us). LB like not having to fight a off line block while flowing.

We have made the over call by DT who is on same side as the RB next to the QB, which messes up blocking rules (we move that DT to the C-G gap and have him drive the G into the OT (as a stunt call) which gets us a single A gap that opens up to invite the RB into (MLB stacks behind the DT)

Not many coaches at middle school (or lower) have patience play the Ace back draw in spread (they all want to throw the ball down field). In 2x2 ace back, we play CB man on #1 eligible, and LBs in  under Zone (we tell them 10 yds around their starting position, and the Safeties have 2 deep Zone. Still working on zone, but it usually has the receiver bookended (defender under and over him), which make the throw have to be very accurate. Again not many middle schoolers can make that pass with out DE's coming hard.

We are not ready to add the OLB blitz, but have played with it some in the 2x2 ace back. Has potential with the blitz side safety rotating up. Zone coverage has to be solid 1st, looks like we could get a big sack out of it.

Thanks for sharing!