Spread with DC R&S?

[objesguy44]

Hey guys. New to this forum, but have used a lot. I really have read up a lot on the DC R&S and have been very impressed. I coached a middle school football team on a Native American reservation. We went 1-6, but I think we had a lot of good things. The problem is the kids have a lot going against them. First off, the school I coach at has a lot tougher academic standards then most schools in the area (players have stay eligible WEEKLY, something I have never seen at a school before). Second, the roster was small (we only had 17 guys, but by game day, due to eligibility, we had only 12-14 guys usually; some games we had only 11). Third, we didn't have a lot of big kids, especially in comparison to the competition.

I really want to establish a spread and run and shoot offense because I think it establishes a "basketball on grass" mentality. Basketball is a huge sport here on the reservation, and I want to teach them an offense that is easily accessible to them. From what I have seen, the Spread and Run and Shot do that perfectly.

However, I just would like some feedback. What are some of opinions of mixing them DC R&S principles with a shotgun spread? I know you can do the trips formation shotgun as shown in DC's playbook, but what about two and two? We don't really have a guy with the size or skill set to play tight end, so I think it would be pointless to have him play such a position. Most of the guys we have are "Wes Welker" types (smaller receivers, but fast). I just want to instill anything that would help get my receivers in space.

Second, I also like the shotgun because we have a good center returning who can long snap well. Plus, I want to give the QB more time and I found our passing last year was a lot better when we were in shotgun than under center (the coach last year wanted to run a Power I which was a mistake; we didn't have the size or personnel to run that kind of an offense).

Any feedback would be appreciated. Really love this forum! Thanks!

[Big_Coconut]

only thing that would change are the run plays and spread means longer throws with the trips closer the throws are easier...so if you have elway spread it if you have kitna bunchem lol

[Big_Coconut]

    x                 o o c o o                      z
                                      w       y
                       f     q

or start in doubles and motion w or y across to create a trips only prob is your maing  the read harder "he near me far" ect the qb needs to look and the wrs need to look less time looking you increase your chances of a unsuccesful play imo

[objesguy44]

Thanks for the points Big Coconut. That was definitely my concern when I was coming up with combining the spread with DC's R&S (the playcalling aspect; trips definitely makes it easier for the QBs and WRs to communicate pre-snap).

Also, would you suggest moving to a pistol or sticking with a traditional running back alignment in a shotgun if you ran the DC R&S offense out of shotgun. I have watched some tape and have seen some teams use a pistol formation and it seemed to work to some success.

Thanks again for the advice!

[Big_Coconut]

i would say pistol, after reading about run n shoot the trend these days is pistol, however ide stay under center, the passes required i dont think are given greater % of success from gun/[istol over under center.

[Big_Coconut]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efLE5JyskU8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efLE5JyskU8</a>

[Belebuch]

http://passhappy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general


Check this site out, great RnS resource

[objesguy44]

BC- Thanks for the advice and the June Jones video. Great stuff. Again, I think you make a great point about the QB arm strength. Our QB last year graduated so we're going to have to re-evaluate, but the QB who might succeed him (our backup) had above average-good arm strength, so we'll see how he fits into the offense.

Belebuch- thanks for the link! Great resource. I also like the stuff on Air Raid. I like a lot of the concepts from the Air Raid as well. Definitely trying to discern which would suit our kids better. I like RnS more, but we'll see.

[Belebuch]

Id put more on accuracy and the ability to hit wrs on the run over pure arm strength.

[morris]

While DC's R&S I guess in some ways fits the shoot it is not what most define as the shoot.  If I get a little all over the place please forgive me.

Run and Shoot teams work out of a 4 wide set.  Some under center and some gun and some do both.  Depending on your run game I would not suggest going pistol.  It is harder pass protection wise when it comes to the shoot.  Jones and a number of other shoot guys have gotten away from the motion and just line up in 2x2 or 3x1 sets.  On the lower levels motion still helps because teams cannot hide coverages as well.  The half roll used in the shoot is much easier in the gun.  What you give up by going gun is the ability to get the ball out right now.

There are a couple of different "accepted" versions of the shoot
Tiger Ellison: father of the shoot with more of a run game.
Red Faught: Close to Ellison's version but a more refined passing game.  There are still colleges that run his version of the shoot.
Mouse Davis: Father of the modern shoot where he took Tiger's ideas and created rules.  Most of what people call the shoot comes directly from Mouse
Jones: The new "man" when it comes to the shoot.  He went gun and has introduced some changes including using more non read concepts. 

The DC R&S is an extremely simplified version of the Run and Shoot concept.  I think it can work but I would suggest looking at other shoot material just to get an idea of how they work.  I am not suggesting running Davis, Jones or a modern version.  Faught version I think can be run on the MS level to a degree.  If you do not have a TE type for the DC version than just put the kid in a nasty or flexed position.  A true shoot has way too many moving parts for you to coach.  DC's version is like I said different.

Air Raid
I am not sure if passing get much easier than this.  It can be run out of just about any formation.  It is a simple install and you don't have to run a bunch of stuff.  You can get the information on how to practice it (the big key to the offense) online pretty easy.  The key is to not do too much.  I am not sure how much money you have to spend on resources but you can learn the offense pretty well for little to no investment money wise.

QB wise in both offenses need to be accurate.  That is the biggest thing.  You don't need a cannon.

[Big_Coconut]

for simplicity sake if you have the men on the O line that can zone block, you teach them inside and out side zone or just oz you will be ok enough for the run portion, maybe throw in a speed sweep, reverse, draw. I really respect and enjoy reading the air raid material.  Also remember the TExas tech air raid that i have states in that information something about splits as wide as 4ft thats insane! especially for youth, so ide start with 2 feet, then if your oline is doing well experiment with 3 feet. If you play a defense like mine where we have gap calls that will align the dlineman in the middle of gap instead of a players technique then you might be in some stuff.  But thats also college ive seen R and S material with 6 inch splits i just anticipate a good DE rush being a problem where the DE has more ground to travel in wider splits

[morris]

TT used much larger than 4 ft splits and their OL coach was very clear about one detail.  You better have some very good athletes up front to do it or you'll get your QB killed with those large splits.  They also would love for you to line up in the gaps.  For TT there would be 6 gaps to account for.  So to account for all the gaps you would in theory have to blitz and play Cov 0.  Here comes screens, shallow and verts if they see that.

The type of protection you us will also determine the splits.  TT was a vertical set team which is a very different pass protection than what many people use.

[objesguy44]

While DC's R&S I guess in some ways fits the shoot it is not what most define as the shoot.  If I get a little all over the place please forgive me.

Run and Shoot teams work out of a 4 wide set.  Some under center and some gun and some do both.  Depending on your run game I would not suggest going pistol.  It is harder pass protection wise when it comes to the shoot.  Jones and a number of other shoot guys have gotten away from the motion and just line up in 2x2 or 3x1 sets.  On the lower levels motion still helps because teams cannot hide coverages as well.  The half roll used in the shoot is much easier in the gun.  What you give up by going gun is the ability to get the ball out right now.

There are a couple of different "accepted" versions of the shoot
Tiger Ellison: father of the shoot with more of a run game.
Red Faught: Close to Ellison's version but a more refined passing game.  There are still colleges that run his version of the shoot.
Mouse Davis: Father of the modern shoot where he took Tiger's ideas and created rules.  Most of what people call the shoot comes directly from Mouse
Jones: The new "man" when it comes to the shoot.  He went gun and has introduced some changes including using more non read concepts. 

The DC R&S is an extremely simplified version of the Run and Shoot concept.  I think it can work but I would suggest looking at other shoot material just to get an idea of how they work.  I am not suggesting running Davis, Jones or a modern version.  Faught version I think can be run on the MS level to a degree.  If you do not have a TE type for the DC version than just put the kid in a nasty or flexed position.  A true shoot has way too many moving parts for you to coach.  DC's version is like I said different.

Air Raid
I am not sure if passing get much easier than this.  It can be run out of just about any formation.  It is a simple install and you don't have to run a bunch of stuff.  You can get the information on how to practice it (the big key to the offense) online pretty easy.  The key is to not do too much.  I am not sure how much money you have to spend on resources but you can learn the offense pretty well for little to no investment money wise.

QB wise in both offenses need to be accurate.  That is the biggest thing.  You don't need a cannon.

Morris, thank you very much for your input. I espeically like the things about the Air Raid and suggestions about looking at the Run and Shoot. I have been able to look at other sources (e.g. Davis, Jenkins and Jones' versions) and I think they have all been great resources. I am also looking more into Air Raid. I read one place that you really just need five basic plays for the Air Raid at the high school level, which really intrigues me because of the simplicity. All in all, I guess what I'm trying to look for is an offense that uses our talent (smaller but fast guys) and that is simple for the kids to grasp (I think a spread, Air Raid, Run and Shoot offense provides a basketball on grass feel which the kids would relate to well because basketball is so big here).

Thanks again!

[Belebuch]

Id run alot of mouse and make the defense chase your wrs. Slide worked very well for us going from 2x2 to 3x1 with the motion man being the prinary wr. Its very hard for a defender to keep up.

[objesguy44]

Id run alot of mouse and make the defense chase your wrs. Slide worked very well for us going from 2x2 to 3x1 with the motion man being the prinary wr. Its very hard for a defender to keep up.

 Thanks Belebuch. I have been looking a lot through Mouse Davis' NY/NJ Knights playbook and I think it has been a great resource. If you were going to run that kind of R & S (e.g. Davis' version) how many plays would you probably use for a game? I know simpler and doing one play extremely well is better than doing ten plays just well. With limited practice time and the age, what do you guys think is the appropriate amount of plays to have on the call sheet come gameday? I just want to get an idea so I'm not wasting practice time and I'm not overflooding the kids' heads with information.