4-3 Over for 11-12 YO Studs

[CoachMattC]

So I met my new DC last night and asked him his thoughts for a system this year.  I was hoping to install one of the "guru" systems, Jack's 6-3, DC46, JJ's 33 whatever.  But he had a lot of success last season with our 8-9th grade kids running a 4-3 over front with cover 2 behind.  I mean a lot of success, they were one game away from a trip to the Pop Warner Superbowl at Disney.

Now that team had lots of talent and very few kids got their minimum plays on defense so I was a little wary.  I gave him the following restrictions:  You can pick 5 kids to be anyone you want (probably the offensive backs too, all the best players we have).  Then you get 6 kids who do not start on offense but we can negotiate which 6 (im thinking these are my starting oline types).  That 11 is your starting D.  Then you have to get 6 more of the better leftover kids their plays subbing in on defense.  I am responsible for the rest on offense (we will have 35 kids and need 6 plays each).  He didn't even flinch before he said no problem. 

I have not seen these kids in action yet (I get last years tapes tonight) but everyone keep telling me the team is stacked.  Should I be squirming here?  I hate to tell guy flat out he's crazy mostly because I'm just uneducated on this defense.  He did offer to over the last years films with me and show me where it worked and where it flopped.

[YCarr]

Just mu .02, but if in was gping to 2 platoon, I would either draft 1 for 1 within the team, or let him pick his best 11 first.  A stacked defense is a good thing.

[ZACH]

Agreed, 2 platoon would have to be considered.4-3 over cover 2 demands some things one is pressure with out having to blitz. So mpp dlineman is probably not in the best interest of the team. The best sitiation would be to split the teams 18/17 now things are different.

[JrTitan]

So I met my new DC last night and asked him his thoughts for a system this year.  I was hoping to install one of the "guru" systems, Jack's 6-3, DC46, JJ's 33 whatever.  But he had a lot of success last season with our 8-9th grade kids running a 4-3 over front with cover 2 behind.  I mean a lot of success, they were one game away from a trip to the Pop Warner Superbowl at Disney.

For what it's worth, our varsity bases out of 4-3 Over front and they are recommending that we run their under front (8th grade).

[CoachMattC]

Agreed, 2 platoon would have to be considered.4-3 over cover 2 demands some things one is pressure with out having to blitz. So mpp dlineman is probably not in the best interest of the team. The best sitiation would be to split the teams 18/17 now things are different.

I agree on the stacked defense idea, Ive always tried to keep the burden of true minimum play kids on the offensive side.  But, Ive also learned that with 35 kids that means I will end up with two complete minimum play offensive lines each needing six plays.  Not usually a problem until you get to the tougher competition and neither of those lines can generate a first down.

I like the 18/17 split, but IMO I have to assume there will be 5 kids who play most of the game going both ways at LB, DE and in the offensive backfield.  So it really becomes the other 30 kids I truly need to worry about.  Using my outline defense has to take 12 of those 30 and no true minimum play kids, just non starters.  Offense still gets 18 and all the really challenged ones.  I know I can deal with starting 8 kids who only play on the o-line and at wingback, no defense.  The other 10 kids are the minimum play platoon.  They gotta get 6 plays, probably out of Beast formation with one of the better running backs.

For what it's worth, our varsity bases out of 4-3 Over front and they are recommending that we run their under front (8th grade).

Any particular reason they gave you for using the under?  I'm guessing the consensus is it's stronger off tackle?

[jkoester]

You might want to think about running 4 total offensive units - one made up of your best 11 offensive players, and 3 units where you have back ups.  With 35, my guess is those back up units will have maybe 5 kids you're getting plays for, with 6 starters.  If you mix it up right, and play around with formations and a shorter play book for those groups (to maximize their reps and increase execution), you'll move the ball.  I run 3 total units on O, two with back ups.  That's 16 plays with my 8 play MPR (30 kids).  You'd need 18 plays for 3 similar units.  If you can speed up the pace of your entire offense, that's not a bad scenario.  Especially considering your D is stacked, so you'll get the ball back.

The way I work it - I run in a back up group, run a 3-4 play series no huddle, and they stay in while they move the ball.  If they run into a down and distance issue (2nd and more than 10, 3rd and 5+, 4th and more than inches), then I run my best group out to get the first down.  Then back in goes one of my back up groups once we get the first down.

Personally, with 35 I'd probably give the D first choice of 11, then I'd pick the best offense.  Usually, I can find 4-5 players that aren't starting on D to be on the starting O and not give up much if anything.  Then give the D the next best 5 or 6 kids for subs.  Then I put the rest of the kids on offense.  I try not to use the defensive subs on O unless they are of "starter" quality, or they're giving a starter a needed rest.

If you run two back up offenses and mix in 5 subs, that's 10 kids you're getting plays for.  If you run 3 mixing in 6 starters, that's 15 - and that should do it.

I'd use a different play package for each group, and/or different formations.  With the no huddle, that makes it hard to scout and prepare for you.

[JrTitan]

Any particular reason they gave you for using the under?  I'm guessing the consensus is it's stronger off tackle?

Better against the run since it has fewer bubbles.  It's essientially a 5-2 front.

[CoachMattC]

You might want to think about running 4 total offensive units - one made up of your best 11 offensive players, and 3 units where you have back ups.  With 35, my guess is those back up units will have maybe 5 kids you're getting plays for, with 6 starters.  If you mix it up right, and play around with formations and a shorter play book for those groups (to maximize their reps and increase execution), you'll move the ball.  I run 3 total units on O, two with back ups.  That's 16 plays with my 8 play MPR (30 kids).  You'd need 18 plays for 3 similar units.  If you can speed up the pace of your entire offense, that's not a bad scenario.  Especially considering your D is stacked, so you'll get the ball back.

The way I work it - I run in a back up group, run a 3-4 play series no huddle, and they stay in while they move the ball.  If they run into a down and distance issue (2nd and more than 10, 3rd and 5+, 4th and more than inches), then I run my best group out to get the first down.  Then back in goes one of my back up groups once we get the first down.

Personally, with 35 I'd probably give the D first choice of 11, then I'd pick the best offense.  Usually, I can find 4-5 players that aren't starting on D to be on the starting O and not give up much if anything.  Then give the D the next best 5 or 6 kids for subs.  Then I put the rest of the kids on offense.  I try not to use the defensive subs on O unless they are of "starter" quality, or they're giving a starter a needed rest.

If you run two back up offenses and mix in 5 subs, that's 10 kids you're getting plays for.  If you run 3 mixing in 6 starters, that's 15 - and that should do it.

I'd use a different play package for each group, and/or different formations.  With the no huddle, that makes it hard to scout and prepare for you.

It is tempting to have multiple "not that bad" offenses but if I can pull off one "pretty bad" unit that is done in 6 plays that's even more tempting.  The big advantage I discovered with doing it the way I posted earlier is that there are 12 kids on defense who never play offense and 18 kids on offense who never play defense.  With enough coaches that effectively doubles my practice time because those kids can focus on only one position and one set of responsibilities all the time.

[Michael]

Can you have an MMP-type offensive unit that just knows two plays or so, and is really good at them?  Something that doesn't put a lot of pressure on the line, maybe, or always runs to the same side (switch it every game if you have to).

[CoachMattC]

Can you have an MMP-type offensive unit that just knows two plays or so, and is really good at them?  Something that doesn't put a lot of pressure on the line, maybe, or always runs to the same side (switch it every game if you have to).

Absolutely.  Im envisioning a three play series from the Beast formation.  Power off tackle with the three best of the worst kids loaded up right at the POA, then a quick shift of those kids to the weak side if the defense loads up, then if one kid doesnt show up I can sneak a receiver in at the weak side end and run a jump pass off the power action.  Nothing fancy but I think we can pull it off if we go no huddle, warp speed and manage down and distance like jkoester mentioned.

[jkoester]

It is tempting to have multiple "not that bad" offenses but if I can pull off one "pretty bad" unit that is done in 6 plays that's even more tempting.  The big advantage I discovered with doing it the way I posted earlier is that there are 12 kids on defense who never play offense and 18 kids on offense who never play defense.  With enough coaches that effectively doubles my practice time because those kids can focus on only one position and one set of responsibilities all the time.

I don't disagree with that.  I considered it - I could have put an 11 man unit out there that was just butt awful, LOL.  But that would give up 8 plays, I didn't want to do that.  Instead I decided on two not bad units.  I don't believe I gave up too many plays, my back ups moved the ball.  What I MIGHT have given up was time - for all I know, my starters might have scored while my back ups were getting 4-5 yards a pop.

For 6 plays?  Yeah, I'd think about that.  Two plays for 3 series at worst.  I'd run wedge and power.  Rep the crap out of those two plays.

But to me, everything comes down to having the best D you can.  Keeping the other team off the board allows you a lot more room to mess around on O.

It also comes down to talent - how many players do you have to truly hide?  Sounds like you have a good philosophy, now it's just moving around the puzzle pieces when you see what you have.

[CoachMattC]

It also comes down to talent - how many players do you have to truly hide?  Sounds like you have a good philosophy, now it's just moving around the puzzle pieces when you see what you have.

Bingo, I get their games from last year tonight so we will see what I'm dealing with on that front.  Maybe I'll upload one of their games and see what you guys think.  I know their coaching last year was questionable at best but they still limped into a playoff spot and first round close loss with that working against them.

[CoachMattC]

So for anyone interested here is their first round playoff loss last year we are in black:

http://vimeo.com/23848981

After giving it a once over there is some talent there but nothing outrageous.  The coaches definitely could have got more out of them but I guess they were about on par for typical dad coaches.  I'm not feeling good about the over front at all, maybe the under like Jr Titan mentioned.

[kcdeer]

Just a thought, and I realize everyone's situation is different, but most 11-year-olds signing up for football want to learn if not play on both sides of the ball.  How are you helping to develop kids if they are "offensive line only" or "Defensive line MPP only" kids?  Do they at least get reps in practice on both sides of the ball?  In some cases, it seems the only ones really being "coached" are the top 11 or so of the 35.  It is a juggling act and probably the hardest and most controversial part of youth football.

[YCarr]

I have never 2 platooned offense and defense, but mostly because I've never had the numbers to.  I think I would jump at the opportunity if I had 30 kids to coach.  I actually think that the MPP D lineman (if such a thing exists) actually gets coaches more and becomes measurably better than if he splits his time between o and d.  For example, say you practice 3 x week for a 10 week season.  Let's just call each practice 2 hours.  That MPP lineman will get around 20 hours of instruction learning to play DL.  Split that time with offense an he would only get 10 hours.  I think we all agree that you would be better practicing something for 20 hours rather than 10.  Keep in mind, this is a minimum play talent kid, so just think of the reward of making a MPP able to play with the other guys starters.
My final point will be unpopular, but my guess is in HS most players will play 1 way, so you are also preparing that player to be able to compete at the next level, if he works hard enough in the weight room.
I am not saying I'm right, just that there is value in getting a kid to be the best he can be at one thing rather than several.