Onside Kick after a Safety

[Michael]

Is it legal?

I was watching a Pee Wee game yesterday, and here's the situation.

Team has the ball on their own 3 with maybe 1 minute left, down by 5.  They get tackled in the end zone, so they are down by 7, and they have to kick it off (or punt it).  Can they onside kick it?

I saw an old post on Huey's or somewhere that said yes.  And I saw something somewhere else on the internet that said it's a free kick, so you can kick it off, punt it, or drop-kick it, and all of the normal kickoff rules apply.

They kicked it deep, and the other team ran out the clock.

[CoachJJ]

I am pretty sure you can ONSIDE under NFHS rules ...

About 20 years ago, I was driving from from Ft Lauderdale to Orlando on a Friday Night and found a HS game being broadcast on the radio (no idea who was playing) ... but I will never forget the team that was trailing by 4 with about 2 minutes to go was inside their own 2 ... 1st down they took an intentional SAFETY ... now down by 6, they came out and did an ONSIDE kick ... they recovered and drove down to score the winning TD with just a few seconds left in the game ...

Very excited announcer ... he was shocked and amazed when they took the safety on 1st down (saving all the time possible I suppose) ... but then when they recovered the kick and scored soon after, all the announcer kept saying was their HC was the greatest ever ... LOL

[Michael]

I just found this:

http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/rfsc/intro/johnson.shtml

Question: After a safety, the kicking team has the option to punt or kick the ball. Why can't the kicking team do an on-side punt, recovering the ball after it travels 10 yards?

Answer: NCAA & NFHS: Any free kick, including a punt following a safety, may be recovered by the kicking team after it has traveled 10 yds or been touched by a receiver.

[CoachJJ]

On a punt the receiving team can signal 'fair catch' because the ball doesnt touch the ground ... you can NOT interfere with the person catching the ball ...

I guess that also means you cant snag it out of the air before the receiver catches it ??
I mean it makes me wonder if you could PUNT it 12 yards and send your 6'8" freak of nature to tip it or catch it above the receivers head (as long as no contact is made) no matter if he calls 'fair catch' or not ??

[Michael]

You could use a tee and bounce it, or you could punt and bounce it (might not be easy, though).

[CoachJJ]

You could use a tee and bounce it, or you could punt and bounce it (might not be easy, though).

I understand how to bounce an onside kick ... in fact we teach that as our base kickoff ...

I am just wondering out loud mostly ... can you use a PUNT to kick onside ... I realize that a well coached team would call fair catch but if you could knock the ball out of the air prior to contacting the receiver or catch it out of the air with no contact ... then I just wonder how that works (if at all) ...

[Michael]

I understand how to bounce an onside kick ... in fact we teach that as our base kickoff ...

Of course.  I know you know.

I just meant you could go with a tee, and probably lose the element of surprise, or you could try to bounce the ball with a punt rather than with a kick off a tee, but as far as the latter goes, I bet it's tough.  I might have to try that myself at practice tomorrow.  Or today in the yard.

[jkoester]

I THINK - don't KNOW - that you cannot catch a free kick in the air.  Think I got that over at Huey's recently - as in last two weeks.  Ball has to hit a player or the ground to be fair game.  You can catch a punt to down it, but not a free kick.

And JJ - that HS coach that did that - he must have been REALLY sure he could get that on-sides kick back.  Because you're giving up possession based on that slim chance.  Even Belichick didn't take that safety in Denver until 4th down, and there was enough time left to force a punt to get the ball back...

[Michael]

you're giving up possession based on that slim chance.

In our case, the safety our Pee Wee team took was definitely not intentional.

[jem]

I THINK - don't KNOW - that you cannot catch a free kick in the air.  Think I got that over at Huey's recently - as in last two weeks.  Ball has to hit a player or the ground to be fair game.  You can catch a punt to down it, but not a free kick.

You (kicking team) can catch it in the air after 10 yards wither it hits a player or the ground or not.  The only reason for the tee and bouncing it is to keep the receiving team from calling a fair catch. But other than the fair catch call... the ball belongs to whoever can get to it first.  I have seen teams use a pop kick to the receiving team's linemen off a regular teed up ball when the linemen turn their backs to the ball to run down and get set up for the wedge.  The kicking team would just run down and catch it in the air because the linemen never even knew where the ball was so they couldn't call a fair catch.

j

[Bob Goodman]

You (kicking team) can catch it in the air after 10 yards wither it hits a player or the ground or not.

Not in Federation rules.

The only reason for the tee and bouncing it is to keep the receiving team from calling a fair catch.

No.  In all the American codes, the receiving team must be given opp'ty to catch the ball whether they call for a fair catch or not.  In some of the codes it's not interference if team K catches the ball and there's nobody from team R in position or trying to play it, but in Fed the ball has to touch the ground, an official, or someone from team R, or it's interference regardless of whether there's a player of R within a mile of it.

In the Canadian codes, both teams have equal rights to the ball and don't have to be given opp'ty to catch it, although you still have to play the ball and not the opponent.

[JB]

.

[jem]

Not in Federation rules.No.  In all the American codes, the receiving team must be given opp'ty to catch the ball whether they call for a fair catch or not.  In some of the codes it's not interference if team K catches the ball and there's nobody from team R in position or trying to play it, but in Fed the ball has to touch the ground, an official, or someone from team R, or it's interference regardless of whether there's a player of R within a mile of it.

In the Canadian codes, both teams have equal rights to the ball and don't have to be given opp'ty to catch it, although you still have to play the ball and not the opponent.

I stand corrected!  Good Job 

j

[Chris K]

Not in Federation rules.No.  In all the American codes, the receiving team must be given opp'ty to catch the ball whether they call for a fair catch or not.  In some of the codes it's not interference if team K catches the ball and there's nobody from team R in position or trying to play it, but in Fed the ball has to touch the ground, an official, or someone from team R, or it's interference regardless of whether there's a player of R within a mile of it.

In the Canadian codes, both teams have equal rights to the ball and don't have to be given opp'ty to catch it, although you still have to play the ball and not the opponent.

If the ball hits the ground isn't it treated like a fumble?? I have yet to see a team kick an onsides and wait for the other team to try and get it. 1st man there takes out the guy waiting for the ball.

[jkoester]

Once the ball hits the ground, it's a free ball.

He means you cannot hit the receiver while the ball is in the air.

In NCAA rules, you actually can't hit anyone until you are eligible to recover the ball - meaning either the ball goes 10 yards or the receiving team touches it/engages you.  So you can't get out and block in front of the ball.