coach Rourke's Wide 7 stingers as an alternative to boxing ends

[giantheart]

I thought this might be better served on a new topic that is seperate from the boxing ends thread currently active

Has anyone ever looked at Coach Rourke's wide Seven defense and the stingers he uses for DE as an alternative to boxing. can someone explain to me the philiosphy behind this DE play?

I know its what John Carbone used  for his 6-2 shooter (because he mentions Coach Rourke). I think I understand that..hopefully...but in the original wide seven, coach rourke is doing a lot of different things (including zone defense, gap alignment, etc.)

If I understand it correctly, and that is a big if, the DE's basically come in almost flat...no two steps into the backfield....keeping the outside arm free, and having contain responsibility.

It seems to me that this DE technique is trying to do three things at once. It designed to squeeze the C gap because the DEs are closing it on their way to the ball carrier. It is designed to contain at the same time because the DEs are taught to keep their outside arm free. Finally it is designed to put pressure on the backfield action because of the direct path (crashing technique).

Seems like too much to ask a DE to do unless he is a freak athlete like JPP (on my favorite NFL team)....but admittedly...I don't know much about the original philiosophy.. Just wondering if anyone has looked at it and could explain the concept..

[ltlacy]

IMOO, it's like a blitzing LB, head-hunting for the QB or RB. It helps because it put pressure on many pitch plays except maybe a speed pitch or DW Razor, you can also take away options play b/c they are in the backfield so fast. I know it should like 3 things you have them doing but it's not. Quick answer but maybe it will get the ball rolling! Here is a good example of this(I think)

[coachbob]

We have used the "Stinger" technique since 2005.

We have taught our DE's to play with this technique using the Wide Tackle 7, Split-6, DC-43, Double Eagle Flex, and Gap-8 defenses. We  use a few adjustments in all of these defenses, but the "Stinger" style of DE play has been so successful, we use it exclusively on every down.

It is more correct to refer to the Stingers as OLB's because they actually do more than "crash and box". We teach these players to play the near back man-to-man against the run AND the pass.

Here's the technique:

The OLB aligns 2-3 yards outside the EMLOS; Inside foot forward-pointed directly at the near back in the offensive backfield; At the snap, the OLB SPRINTS with his initial aiming point directed at the hip of the near back. His path of attack will vary depending on the action he sees in the backfield.

This player's mantra is "Attack the Back"

If the near back goes away, the path of the OLB will flatten and he will trail through the offensive backfield watching for counters, reverses, bootlegs.

If the near back comes at him as a lead blocker the OLB will "attack the back" as aggressively as possible keeping his outside arm free. We want to disrupt the play as quickly as possible and as deep as possible in the opponents' backfield. We want the OLB to turn the runner inside, but if the runner is intent on bouncing the play outside, we want his running path to become much deeper than normal, and we want our OLB to be able to tackle the runner using his outside arm.

If the near back attempts to release for a swing pass, the OLB will cover the back. (Our OLB's have intercepted passes and returned them for TD's every year)

Against the option, the OLB will have the pitch man.

We have never had better than a mediocre player at the OLB position. An obedient, reasonably good athlete can be coached to play using these techniques. HOWEVER, these players will need to get live reps EVERY DAY in practice. If you have at least two coaches to help with the defense, have one of them assigned to watch one of the OLB's on every down or rep in every practice.

If you use the Wide 7 defense, you will need a sure tackler at MLB

If you have a FS with the ability to fill the alley quickly and a good MLB-You will be in really good shape

Your SS's (ILB's) will have to be drilled daily on jamming TE's. They must not give ground

[giantheart]

We have used the "Stinger" technique since 2005.

We have taught our DE's to play with this technique using the Wide Tackle 7, Split-6, DC-43, Double Eagle Flex, and Gap-8 defenses. We  use a few adjustments in all of these defenses, but the "Stinger" style of DE play has been so successful, we use it exclusively on every down.

It is more correct to refer to the Stingers as OLB's because they actually do more than "crash and box". We teach these players to play the near back man-to-man against the run AND the pass.

Here's the technique:

The OLB aligns 2-3 yards outside the EMLOS; Inside foot forward-pointed directly at the near back in the offensive backfield; At the snap, the OLB SPRINTS with his initial aiming point directed at the hip of the near back. His path of attack will vary depending on the action he sees in the backfield.

This player's mantra is "Attack the Back"

If the near back goes away, the path of the OLB will flatten and he will trail through the offensive backfield watching for counters, reverses, bootlegs.

If the near back comes at him as a lead blocker the OLB will "attack the back" as aggressively as possible keeping his outside arm free. We want to disrupt the play as quickly as possible and as deep as possible in the opponents' backfield. We want the OLB to turn the runner inside, but if the runner is intent on bouncing the play outside, we want his running path to become much deeper than normal, and we want our OLB to be able to tackle the runner using his outside arm.

If the near back attempts to release for a swing pass, the OLB will cover the back. (Our OLB's have intercepted passes and returned them for TD's every year)

Against the option, the OLB will have the pitch man.

We have never had better than a mediocre player at the OLB position. An obedient, reasonably good athlete can be coached to play using these techniques. HOWEVER, these players will need to get live reps EVERY DAY in practice. If you have at least two coaches to help with the defense, have one of them assigned to watch one of the OLB's on every down or rep in every practice.

If you use the Wide 7 defense, you will need a sure tackler at MLB

If you have a FS with the ability to fill the alley quickly and a good MLB-You will be in really good shape

Your SS's (ILB's) will have to be drilled daily on jamming TE's. They must not give ground

Coach Bob,

Thank for explaining that to me...

How often do you run into situations where your DE is mixed up with the lead blocking back and the ball carrier is able to spill around to the outside for a gain? Don't you run into situations where the DE has "crashed" or "stung" to far inside? In those situations are you depending on your MLB to make a play inside -out?

[coachkev]

you should check out Jack Gregory's 6-3 and review the spill/kill technique his DE's play.  He's also got some good drills to teach this. 

[mahonz]

G

Playing your edge defenders as force players is only one piece of the puzzle.

Like I mentioned in the other thread…if your edge defender is playing force then someone else must play contain.

Maybe coach Bob can expand his thoughts here but this is just me….

You play this style of defense to occupy lead blocks and funnel the football into a reduced C gap and not to spill but that can happen too.

Now what?

If you are posting up TE's then that player has to jam the TE and fill the C Gap so he must be able to match up all of the time.

Is the CB occupied?

If you are playing man press the CB's are fully occupied. If you are playing zone then they are doubly occupied reading run first pass second.  So that CB must be skilled enough to cover quite a bit of area.

One second level Defender?

Think double tight 2x2 formations. The MLB...all by his lonesome self can be a gamble so cover 0 is probably wise if you trust your CB's on that island. With all gaps filled he must be the flow master but one false read and he is done. A FS covering half the box is smart IMO.   

So…if you’re your edge defender is responsible for setting the force….what is everyone else doing? Your force player does not have to play on the LOS either. 30 fronts and 40 fronts will use OLB’s to set the force.

The 7 Diamond or Wide 7 is very good at putting pressure on the offense but one mismatch here or one brain freeze there and its a big play. Its very 46-ish. Requires very good coaching. We ran the 7 Diamond with a group of 3rd graders way back. I cant remember anything we didnt like about it.

[Vince148]

I think that this was an issue that I was having that Bucksweep was bringing to my attention on the other thread. If you have guys crashing, who is playing contain?

So would it be a good assumption to say that if you are playing with crashing ends that there really is no contain and that you are using a spill and kill style of defense instead?

[Michael]

Here's the technique:

The OLB aligns 2-3 yards outside the EMLOS; Inside foot forward-pointed directly at the near back in the offensive backfield; At the snap, the OLB SPRINTS with his initial aiming point directed at the hip of the near back. His path of attack will vary depending on the action he sees in the backfield.

This player's mantra is "Attack the Back"

If the near back goes away, the path of the OLB will flatten and he will trail through the offensive backfield watching for counters, reverses, bootlegs.

If the near back comes at him as a lead blocker the OLB will "attack the back" as aggressively as possible keeping his outside arm free. We want to disrupt the play as quickly as possible and as deep as possible in the opponents' backfield. We want the OLB to turn the runner inside, but if the runner is intent on bouncing the play outside, we want his running path to become much deeper than normal, and we want our OLB to be able to tackle the runner using his outside arm.

If the near back attempts to release for a swing pass, the OLB will cover the back. (Our OLB's have intercepted passes and returned them for TD's every year)

Against the option, the OLB will have the pitch man.

Has anyone ever sent the EMLOS at him, with either (a) a pull, essentially, or (b) a kick-slide, even on a run play, in order to keep him away from the back?

[FlynnStones]

We have used the "Stinger" technique since 2005.

We have taught our DE's to play with this technique using the Wide Tackle 7, Split-6, DC-43, Double Eagle Flex, and Gap-8 defenses. We  use a few adjustments in all of these defenses, but the "Stinger" style of DE play has been so successful, we use it exclusively on every down.

It is more correct to refer to the Stingers as OLB's because they actually do more than "crash and box". We teach these players to play the near back man-to-man against the run AND the pass.

Here's the technique:

The OLB aligns 2-3 yards outside the EMLOS; Inside foot forward-pointed directly at the near back in the offensive backfield; At the snap, the OLB SPRINTS with his initial aiming point directed at the hip of the near back. His path of attack will vary depending on the action he sees in the backfield.

This player's mantra is "Attack the Back"

If the near back goes away, the path of the OLB will flatten and he will trail through the offensive backfield watching for counters, reverses, bootlegs.

If the near back comes at him as a lead blocker the OLB will "attack the back" as aggressively as possible keeping his outside arm free. We want to disrupt the play as quickly as possible and as deep as possible in the opponents' backfield. We want the OLB to turn the runner inside, but if the runner is intent on bouncing the play outside, we want his running path to become much deeper than normal, and we want our OLB to be able to tackle the runner using his outside arm.

If the near back attempts to release for a swing pass, the OLB will cover the back. (Our OLB's have intercepted passes and returned them for TD's every year)

Against the option, the OLB will have the pitch man.

We have never had better than a mediocre player at the OLB position. An obedient, reasonably good athlete can be coached to play using these techniques. HOWEVER, these players will need to get live reps EVERY DAY in practice. If you have at least two coaches to help with the defense, have one of them assigned to watch one of the OLB's on every down or rep in every practice.

If you use the Wide 7 defense, you will need a sure tackler at MLB

If you have a FS with the ability to fill the alley quickly and a good MLB-You will be in really good shape

Your SS's (ILB's) will have to be drilled daily on jamming TE's. They must not give ground

Coach "right on the money" with explaining Technique.  I have used "stingers" Call for defense for a couple seasons and success was "great".  Carbon even asked my opinions on it in his "Shooter D".

 I tell you this much, these guys have to be very disciplined and  your best. Something I liked to do was "sting" wide side and monster it.  We even had something for 'shortside pressure"... cause guys like to try it from the offensive-side in games.

[FlynnStones]

Jack Gregory too...does have some great stuff in his 63 Defense.  A great resource to have!! Especially with "force" and "alley" roles...etc.
 Whatever we know as coaches-we have to use what "works" with kids  each year.  Sometimes multiple techs., will work for ya too.

[coachbob]

Coach Bob,

Thank for explaining that to me...

How often do you run into situations where your DE is mixed up with the lead blocking back and the ball carrier is able to spill around to the outside for a gain? Don't you run into situations where the DE has "crashed" or "stung" to far inside? In those situations are you depending on your MLB to make a play inside -out?

We teach the DE's/OLB's that their #1 priority is to turn the play inside. (If they can make a play, that is great, but they MUST TURN PLAYS INSIDE) Discipline is the most important characteristic in these players. An average player with discipline is better at this technique than a talented player without discipline.

The MLB's primary responsibility is to make tackles from C gap to C gap. Our schemes occupy the O-linemen, and are designed to keep blockers off of the MLB.

Of course there are times when the Stinger/DE/OLB will go too far inside or get tied up with the lead blocker-it happens occasionally. The MLB will then have to run farther than the C-gap to make a tackle. He will usually have some help from a Safety and a CB to make the play.

The Defense is designed to funnel plays into the C-gaps, but the defense must know how to react if a play spills to the outside.

Lots of reps is the key.

[coachbob]

G

Playing your edge defenders as force players is only one piece of the puzzle.

Like I mentioned in the other thread…if your edge defender is playing force then someone else must play contain.

Maybe coach Bob can expand his thoughts here but this is just me….

You play this style of defense to occupy lead blocks and funnel the football into a reduced C gap and not to spill but that can happen too.

Now what?

If you are posting up TE's then that player has to jam the TE and fill the C Gap so he must be able to match up all of the time.

Is the CB occupied?

If you are playing man press the CB's are fully occupied. If you are playing zone then they are doubly occupied reading run first pass second.  So that CB must be skilled enough to cover quite a bit of area.

One second level Defender?

Think double tight 2x2 formations. The MLB...all by his lonesome self can be a gamble so cover 0 is probably wise if you trust your CB's on that island. With all gaps filled he must be the flow master but one false read and he is done. A FS covering half the box is smart IMO.   

So…if you’re your edge defender is responsible for setting the force….what is everyone else doing? Your force player does not have to play on the LOS either. 30 fronts and 40 fronts will use OLB’s to set the force.

The 7 Diamond or Wide 7 is very good at putting pressure on the offense but one mismatch here or one brain freeze there and its a big play. Its very 46-ish. Requires very good coaching. We ran the 7 Diamond with a group of 3rd graders way back. I cant remember anything we didnt like about it.

Coach Mahonz,

You have made some really good observations.

We play this style of defense to funnel plays inside. We want a sure tackler at MLB who can make tackles from C-gap to C-gap. The Safety (or Safeties) will help fill the alley.

We will jam any TE. No TE will ever be given a free release from the LOS. So, we are funnelling the runner to a congested C-gap, and we will have the MLB and at least one Safety converging on the same C-gap. We will jam (stone) the TE with one or two players depending on the defense we are playing (The defense we are playing will be dictated by the personnel we have to work with)

We  have found that most TE's at the youth level cannot achieve anything more than a stalemate in the C-gap against an "in your face" presence, so, when the runner gets turned inside, there is nowhere to run.

We teach our CB's to cover press man-to-man and we practice it every day. Our CB's make very few tackles, because if the Stingers/DE's/OLB's are doing their jobs, running plays are turned inside before they get as far outside as the CB's. We teach the CB's to fight off blocks and pursue the runner, but if an opposing coach wants to run off our CB's, it is perfectly fine, because we don't count on them as run stoppers.

Coach Mahonz, as you point out, this style of defense is very 46-ish and does put a lot of pressure on the offense. The thing I like most about this style of defense is that it disrupts a lot of plays before they ever get going.

[coachbob]

Coach "right on the money" with explaining Technique.  I have used "stingers" Call for defense for a couple seasons and success was "great".  Carbon even asked my opinions on it in his "Shooter D".

 I tell you this much, these guys have to be very disciplined and  your best. Something I liked to do was "sting" wide side and monster it.  We even had something for 'shortside pressure"... cause guys like to try it from the offensive-side in games.

Coach,

You are absolutely correct- the Stingers must be disciplined. If they don't execute their assignment, well, the defense will not really work.

I also like to "Monster" the wide side of the field!

[ZACH]

All coverage based

Cover 1-0 the contain will most likely be inside out

Cover 2/3 curl/ flat player has contain while next man in has force usually

Funny DC has 2 defenses one that fits each concept i listed

[CoachCraig]

Could u describe your "'monster"