Spacing concept

[durfee4]

Found this article on the Spacing concept,thought it would be a good read.  http://xandolabs.com/2011/11/the-spacing-concept/

[joshnorton]

Good stuff,
http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2005/08/mini-curlspacing-concept.html and http://brophyfootball.blogspot.com/search/label/spacing

both have some great info on the concept also. Very good stuff and can be successful at any level.

Sincerely,
Joshua Norton

[durfee4]

Thanks Coach, I thought so myself,some don,t realize the good info it,s telling!

[mahonz]

Guys

How so?

I read it twice and cant see much I'd personally apply at the youth level....if any of it. 

Just curious....

[Coach Big B]

Guys

How so?

I read it twice and cant see much I'd personally apply at the youth level....if any of it. 

Just curious....

It's rough because you want to use things at this level. You will be hard pressed to have a youth QB make a two level read. LOL I have a rep from X's and O's coming on soon. I may ask them to post more youth stuff here and there for us.

[mahonz]

It's rough because you want to use things at this level. You will be hard pressed to have a youth QB make a two level read. LOL I have a rep from X's and O's coming on soon. I may ask them to post more youth stuff here and there for us.

B

I have had little to no luck luck giving a QB and / or a receiver choices. Plus giving the QB progressions or pre snaps means you must have more than one really good receiver. That is unusual for starters. You can get to two in pretty short order but it takes a long time to get that third or fourth receiver going for the average team.

Plus....I have found that moving players around to different positions takes them out of their comfort level. Running routes and catching footballs from the right is different from the left. Takes time for a kid to become ambidextrous and why I am careful when flipping formations.

So I was curious what some of the other coaches have been able to accomplish.

[CoachShad]

I often use the High to Low or Low to High concept in establishing my routes for certain plays.  I want them to learn that as a QB, so that in a couple or few years he can indeed read like that.  At first I callthe route to throw to.  This will be my QB's 3rd year with me so I will give him more freedom to look for himself.  Will he be perfect?  God no!  But he will learn.  Thats my take on this.

[durfee4]

M  , just saying it,s a good read,as Shad has said,we also teach low to high concept plus we use audibles for our qb when we see a match up,or an uncovered receiver,or if the mof is open.

[joshnorton]

I was referring to the fact that the concept provides:

• a horizontal stretch(the receivers are close) as opposed to a vertical stretch which can be physically impossible at some ages or a flood concept which can be tough without good accuracy(throwing into heavy traffic)
• a number of receivers who are stopped or moving back to the QB(making for an easier catch)
• The concept works extremely well against man coverage(popular at all levels but especially sub high school, at least in the Pacific NW).

Drew might have 5 reads on the play but obviously we did not do so. We designated the receiver(usually in the previous weeks practice based off scouting but also in the playcall based on what were getting on the field) based on alignment and the defensive coverage or matchups we feel are favorable. Obviously personnel is a huge consideration at any level. I coached 7th graders last year and we used this concept probably twice a game, if not more, it was easily one of our most successful pass concepts on the year(bubble and PA pass off inside veer were also both very successful). We ran a SBV primarily from a Pro Set but we threw the ball about 20% of all snaps on the season. For the most part we hit the TE in the flat off the rub provided by the Z receivers route. We also had pretty good success hitting the wheel route by the weak side halfback, he was generally wide open running up the sideline(mostly due to pre snap leverage on the backer assigned to him).

Sincerely,
Joshua Norton

[coachgregory]

B

I have had little to no luck luck giving a QB and / or a receiver choices. Plus giving the QB progressions or pre snaps means you must have more than one really good receiver. That is unusual for starters. You can get to two in pretty short order but it takes a long time to get that third or fourth receiver going for the average team.

Plus....I have found that moving players around to different positions takes them out of their comfort level. Running routes and catching footballs from the right is different from the left. Takes time for a kid to become ambidextrous and why I am careful when flipping formations.

So I was curious what some of the other coaches have been able to accomplish.

Mike,

I have been using a PIPE concept with my kids for well over 10 years now and it is nothing more than a low-high concept on the perimeter.  Lets say you have a FADE-OUT (SE runs a outside release fade and the SLOT runs a 4 step quick out).  The QB will drop/ or set in the gun and put his eyes on the CB (defender over the SE).  He is now in the PIPE if the CB moves up the PIPE he throws the ball now to the SLOT running FADE...  CB MOVES UP THROW IT NOW. IF the CB sits in the PIPE throw the FADE now to the SE.  THis concept is used throughout our perimeter passing game on the CB and the SLOT DEFENDER so the only thing that changes is if it is a LOW IN or LOW OUT read.  This concept is a base concept for us...I have taught it all the way down to 8 year olds and the ony thing that differs is the distance that the LOOSE (SE/SLOT) alignes in to match the QB's arm strength.   As we advance I add to the concept...basically if the defender vacates up or down the pipe (blitzing DB), and put a twist on the rule with TRIPS/BUNCH to allow for the third receiver (qb read) which is basically a single side triangle read (I use this we advance into middle school age -  and is nothing more than the pipe (LOW OUT - UP - LOW IN or vice versa).

Our POWER PASS is a three read concept as well being LOW- MED - HIGH..we start it out as a single read at the younger age (below 8 to the flat) and add LOW-MED until we get into MS and we add the HIGH.  So we used a layer learning approach and our kids easily adapt to it as they progress.

Jack

[CoachShad]

I was referring to the fact that the concept provides:

• a horizontal stretch(the receivers are close) as opposed to a vertical stretch which can be physically impossible at some ages or a flood concept which can be tough without good accuracy(throwing into heavy traffic)
• a number of receivers who are stopped or moving back to the QB(making for an easier catch)
• The concept works extremely well against man coverage(popular at all levels but especially sub high school, at least in the Pacific NW).

Drew might have 5 reads on the play but obviously we did not do so. We designated the receiver(usually in the previous weeks practice based off scouting but also in the playcall based on what were getting on the field) based on alignment and the defensive coverage or matchups we feel are favorable. Obviously personnel is a huge consideration at any level. I coached 7th graders last year and we used this concept probably twice a game, if not more, it was easily one of our most successful pass concepts on the year(bubble and PA pass off inside veer were also both very successful). We ran a SBV primarily from a Pro Set but we threw the ball about 20% of all snaps on the season. For the most part we hit the TE in the flat off the rub provided by the Z receivers route. We also had pretty good success hitting the wheel route by the weak side halfback, he was generally wide open running up the sideline(mostly due to pre snap leverage on the backer assigned to him).

Sincerely,
Joshua Norton

Josh:

No way a JFL (Youth) player can make 5 reads, he simply doesn't have the time to do that let alone the teaching involved.  At best you have 3 or 4 seconds to get rid of the ball, I give them 2.5 then its time to go or throw it away.  A youth OL simply cannot provide enough protection for anything beyond that and if you go "Max Protect" quite honestly you simply dont have that many reads to worry about.   

 

Shad

[mahonz]

Mike,

I have been using a PIPE concept with my kids for well over 10 years now and it is nothing more than a low-high concept on the perimeter.  Lets say you have a FADE-OUT (SE runs a outside release fade and the SLOT runs a 4 step quick out).  The QB will drop/ or set in the gun and put his eyes on the CB (defender over the SE).  He is now in the PIPE if the CB moves up the PIPE he throws the ball now to the SLOT running FADE...  CB MOVES UP THROW IT NOW. IF the CB sits in the PIPE throw the FADE now to the SE.  THis concept is used throughout our perimeter passing game on the CB and the SLOT DEFENDER so the only thing that changes is if it is a LOW IN or LOW OUT read.  This concept is a base concept for us...I have taught it all the way down to 8 year olds and the ony thing that differs is the distance that the LOOSE (SE/SLOT) alignes in to match the QB's arm strength.   As we advance I add to the concept...basically if the defender vacates up or down the pipe (blitzing DB), and put a twist on the rule with TRIPS/BUNCH to allow for the third receiver (qb read) which is basically a single side triangle read (I use this we advance into middle school age -  and is nothing more than the pipe (LOW OUT - UP - LOW IN or vice versa).

Our POWER PASS is a three read concept as well being LOW- MED - HIGH..we start it out as a single read at the younger age (below 8 to the flat) and add LOW-MED until we get into MS and we add the HIGH.  So we used a layer learning approach and our kids easily adapt to it as they progress.

Jack

Jack

Do your receivers ever struggle with their switch?

If the QB is reacting to the CB does this mean the SE and Slot are reading him as well?

Thanks

[mahonz]

I was referring to the fact that the concept provides:

• a horizontal stretch(the receivers are close) as opposed to a vertical stretch which can be physically impossible at some ages or a flood concept which can be tough without good accuracy(throwing into heavy traffic)
• a number of receivers who are stopped or moving back to the QB(making for an easier catch)
• The concept works extremely well against man coverage(popular at all levels but especially sub high school, at least in the Pacific NW).

Drew might have 5 reads on the play but obviously we did not do so. We designated the receiver(usually in the previous weeks practice based off scouting but also in the playcall based on what were getting on the field) based on alignment and the defensive coverage or matchups we feel are favorable. Obviously personnel is a huge consideration at any level. I coached 7th graders last year and we used this concept probably twice a game, if not more, it was easily one of our most successful pass concepts on the year(bubble and PA pass off inside veer were also both very successful). We ran a SBV primarily from a Pro Set but we threw the ball about 20% of all snaps on the season. For the most part we hit the TE in the flat off the rub provided by the Z receivers route. We also had pretty good success hitting the wheel route by the weak side halfback, he was generally wide open running up the sideline(mostly due to pre snap leverage on the backer assigned to him).

Sincerely,
Joshua Norton

Josh

So you were running a Z slant, TE arrow, TB wheel as your concept off PA?

[coachgregory]

Jack

Do your receivers ever struggle with their switch?

If the QB is reacting to the CB does this mean the SE and Slot are reading him as well?

Thanks

Nots sure what you mean by "switch"?

SE and SLOT run their routes so they are not reading them.  I used to do that but I eliminated that when I started using the concept at the youth level.  I wanted the pressure to be on me (CALLING THE SPECIFIC PASS CONCEPT to match up with what I was seeing from the perimeter defenders and on the QB who has to make the right read).  If I add in the receivers the QB's read can get mucked up.  I base my read on what the perimeter triangle concept...so if I see that TRIANGLE playing run or press man or zone I know what concept will match up what they doing and call it.

For example -

Playing RUN - uncovered pass  - built in audible
Playing press/man - rub based routes with a vertical/short to either the inside or outside (based on who the weakest man cover DB is)
Playing zone - hi-lo vertical concept looking for open space from low to high

So my emphasis is to put the pressure on me as the play caller first.  I tell my passer as we get reps that if he makes the right read and throws a pick it is my fault not his.  I want him to be confident his is read and throw the ball ASAP. 

Jack

[joshnorton]

Josh:

No way a JFL (Youth) player can make 5 reads, he simply doesn't have the time to do that let alone the teaching involved.  At best you have 3 or 4 seconds to get rid of the ball, I give them 2.5 then its time to go or throw it away.  A youth OL simply cannot provide enough protection for anything beyond that and if you go "Max Protect" quite honestly you simply dont have that many reads to worry about.   

 

Shad

Shad,

By "Drew" I was referring to Drew Breese (hes part of the of the articles). We did not read the play, we called the play to a given receiver - as detailed in the reply.

Mike,

We ran short curl routes with X, Z, and Y - with all three attempting to stop at roughly LBer depth. Z would come inside and stop just over the strong tackle, Y would come under him and finish just above the Z's initial alignment(roughly 7 yards outside the strong tackle), X would finish a couple of yards outside the weak tackle initial vertical alignment. Again all were shooting to get to the heel depth of the backers. We would then wheel both backs to their respective sides. The overall effect we were shooting for was all 5 players stretched horizontally from the numbers to the numbers. We ran this as a 3 step play, not PAP.

Sincerely,
Joshua Norton