Author Topic: Spacing concept  (Read 779 times)

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Offline mahonz

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Re: Spacing concept
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 12:55:06 AM »

Nots sure what you mean by "switch"?

SE and SLOT run their routes so they are not reading them.  I used to do that but I eliminated that when I started using the concept at the youth level.  I wanted the pressure to be on me (CALLING THE SPECIFIC PASS CONCEPT to match up with what I was seeing from the perimeter defenders and on the QB who has to make the right read).  If I add in the receivers the QB's read can get mucked up.  I base my read on what the perimeter triangle concept...so if I see that TRIANGLE playing run or press man or zone I know what concept will match up what they doing and call it.

For example -

Playing RUN - uncovered pass  - built in audible
Playing press/man - rub based routes with a vertical/short to either the inside or outside (based on who the weakest man cover DB is)
Playing zone - hi-lo vertical concept looking for open space from low to high

So my emphasis is to put the pressure on me as the play caller first.  I tell my passer as we get reps that if he makes the right read and throws a pick it is my fault not his.  I want him to be confident his is read and throw the ball ASAP. 

Jack


Jack

OK...I misunderstood. I thought the receivers were running choice routes based off the defense.

Thanks for the input. I will be coaching the Super Smurfs for the next 3 or 4 years as I start over with the next grandson in line....so I dont expect to get back into this much for a while but am looking at the concepts approach with maybe one read by the QB... again.  Seems to be the thing now a day.

Its never worked for me in the past?

Offline mahonz

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Re: Spacing concept
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 12:56:43 AM »
Shad,

By "Drew" I was referring to Drew Breese (hes part of the of the articles). We did not read the play, we called the play to a given receiver - as detailed in the reply.

Mike,

We ran short curl routes with X, Z, and Y - with all three attempting to stop at roughly LBer depth. Z would come inside and stop just over the strong tackle, Y would come under him and finish just above the Z's initial alignment(roughly 7 yards outside the strong tackle), X would finish a couple of yards outside the weak tackle initial vertical alignment. Again all were shooting to get to the heel depth of the backers. We would then wheel both backs to their respective sides. The overall effect we were shooting for was all 5 players stretched horizontally from the numbers to the numbers. We ran this as a 3 step play, not PAP.

Sincerely,
Joshua Norton


Josh

Thanks for the explanation.

Offline coachgregory

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Re: Spacing concept
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2012, 12:18:35 PM »
Jack

OK...I misunderstood. I thought the receivers were running choice routes based off the defense.

Thanks for the input. I will be coaching the Super Smurfs for the next 3 or 4 years as I start over with the next grandson in line....so I dont expect to get back into this much for a while but am looking at the concepts approach with maybe one read by the QB... again.  Seems to be the thing now a day.

Its never worked for me in the past?


Having read a lot of your posts on passing and I have a copy of your playbook that you and your son wrote back in the early 00's I understand what your doing.  I do it just a little different in that I teach a basic concept with the premise that we must beat PRESS or ZONE coverage.  If we can beat either of those coverage techniques anything else will fall into one of those two techniques.

For example one of my favorite concepts I like to run out of loose pair (SE and SLOT) is what I call a dump.  It is basically the SE running a outside release fade and the slot running a 3 steps at the heels of the SE and on the third step (outside foot) breaking back inside at 45 degrees and looking for the ball.  Against press (with good leverage/technique) this will be thrown to the fade but against zone this is thrown to the dump.

The QB READ accounts for this as it is built in...

I compliment this concept with our WHEEL concept as a base.  The SE runs a quick slant, 1 step outside (to sell outside release fade and take a 30 degree angle inside) and the SLOT runs a wheel under the SE.  Against PRESS (with good leverage/technique) the WHEEL is open but against ZONE the quick slant is open...  Again the QB read accounts for this so if there is an issue the QB always throws to his open read based on the defender in the PIPE.

This makes it easy for my QB to set, read, throw...  That is what I want him doing... SET, READ (the pipe), THROW (it now!).

These are the first two of three concepts I always teach our QB/RECEIVERS when we install the LOOSE.  The first one being UNCOVERED.

Jack

Offline mahonz

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Re: Spacing concept
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2012, 12:35:39 PM »
Having read a lot of your posts on passing and I have a copy of your playbook that you and your son wrote back in the early 00's I understand what your doing.  I do it just a little different in that I teach a basic concept with the premise that we must beat PRESS or ZONE coverage.  If we can beat either of those coverage techniques anything else will fall into one of those two techniques.

For example one of my favorite concepts I like to run out of loose pair (SE and SLOT) is what I call a dump.  It is basically the SE running a outside release fade and the slot running a 3 steps at the heels of the SE and on the third step (outside foot) breaking back inside at 45 degrees and looking for the ball.  Against press (with good leverage/technique) this will be thrown to the fade but against zone this is thrown to the dump.

The QB READ accounts for this as it is built in...

I compliment this concept with our WHEEL concept as a base.  The SE runs a quick slant, 1 step outside (to sell outside release fade and take a 30 degree angle inside) and the SLOT runs a wheel under the SE.  Against PRESS (with good leverage/technique) the WHEEL is open but against ZONE the quick slant is open...  Again the QB read accounts for this so if there is an issue the QB always throws to his open read based on the defender in the PIPE.

This makes it easy for my QB to set, read, throw...  That is what I want him doing... SET, READ (the pipe), THROW (it now!).

These are the first two of three concepts I always teach our QB/RECEIVERS when we install the LOOSE.  The first one being UNCOVERED.

Jack


Jack

I have been scribbling on this a little bit for the third graders next season and I like it. Plus I can still make it a very simple audible call without having to teach both receivers what to do when the other is tagged. They both just do and the QB decides off a very simple read.

Thanks!

Offline morris

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Re: Spacing concept
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 11:58:42 AM »
You can simplify the read in Spacing. Coverdale has been using it for I don't know how many years and it is a huge part of his offense.  Now of course that is HS but you can simplify this down.  I didn't look at the articles posted because i think I have already read them.  The other thing is that the concept is very formation friendly.

On its base level you can turn into a defender key just like stick. You can also tell your QB who to throw to.  The way Coverdale does it is they want the 1 on 1 away from Spacing.  They want to force the defense to move in a manner to help out that CB on the back side.  THey do it by tagging different routes to attack the coverage/technique.  Once they get the adjustment by the defense then they work the Spacing side.  Now he does it as a full field across read with a redrop at times.  Way too much for youth and your not going to do it at a MS level unless you spend a HUGE amount fo offseason time.  The base concept on the 3 rec side though is no more difficult to run the Stick.

Now a concept that is money and simple is Snag.  You can run it as a 2 or 3 rec combination.  Many people have something similar in their offense like a slant wheel or curl wheel combo.

Gregory: I really interested in your passing game approach both in teaching and in game.  I some how have lost the Eagle package PPT that was really indepth.  I know your approach with the triangle in the run game.  I interested in how it works with the pass game in combination with how you use both the run and passing game to protect your plays.  What I mean by that is the guy on a slot can make a play on a fade out combo.  Now I know part of it is calling the right pass combination to match the coverage (soft, hard, leverage, etc) but i have to think part of your run game puts that slot defender in conflict.  I'm not sure if this is making sense.

Offline coachgregory

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Re: Spacing concept
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 03:06:58 PM »
You can simplify the read in Spacing. Coverdale has been using it for I don't know how many years and it is a huge part of his offense.  Now of course that is HS but you can simplify this down.  I didn't look at the articles posted because i think I have already read them.  The other thing is that the concept is very formation friendly.

On its base level you can turn into a defender key just like stick. You can also tell your QB who to throw to.  The way Coverdale does it is they want the 1 on 1 away from Spacing.  They want to force the defense to move in a manner to help out that CB on the back side.  THey do it by tagging different routes to attack the coverage/technique.  Once they get the adjustment by the defense then they work the Spacing side.  Now he does it as a full field across read with a redrop at times.  Way too much for youth and your not going to do it at a MS level unless you spend a HUGE amount fo offseason time.  The base concept on the 3 rec side though is no more difficult to run the Stick.

Now a concept that is money and simple is Snag.  You can run it as a 2 or 3 rec combination.  Many people have something similar in their offense like a slant wheel or curl wheel combo.

Gregory: I really interested in your passing game approach both in teaching and in game.  I some how have lost the Eagle package PPT that was really indepth.  I know your approach with the triangle in the run game.  I interested in how it works with the pass game in combination with how you use both the run and passing game to protect your plays.  What I mean by that is the guy on a slot can make a play on a fade out combo.  Now I know part of it is calling the right pass combination to match the coverage (soft, hard, leverage, etc) but i have to think part of your run game puts that slot defender in conflict.  I'm not sure if this is making sense.


Morris,

I love the Spacing Concept from Coverdale.  The other concept I really like is the Coverdale Crease in a 2x2 with the RB running the crease.  I really like to run it off of a fake speed action because we run the speed option so well and our RB is often one of our better receivers on the team.  As they collapse the LOS it opens up the crease and the perimeter routes.

Quote
Gregory: I really interested in your passing game approach both in teaching and in game.  I some how have lost the Eagle package PPT that was really indepth.


I am planning on posting a 2012 version that is updated.  For the most part the power running game/play action is our base.  The uncovered/spread concepts act to support/enhance those concepts.  What I have found is because the DW is a compressed power running using a hybrid and/or a full spread variation often times puts the defense on its heels because the two approaches are so different.  The hard part was how to blend them so that teaching them was simple and efficient.  I have alway run PERIMETER QUICK PASSING GAME CONCEPTS with the DW but my teaching/structuring of plays as greatly improved over the years.



Quote
I know your approach with the triangle in the run game.  I interested in how it works with the pass game in combination with how you use both the run and passing game to protect your plays.  What I mean by that is the guy on a slot can make a play on a fade out combo.  Now I know part of it is calling the right pass combination to match the coverage (soft, hard, leverage, etc) but i have to think part of your run game puts that slot defender in conflict.  I'm not sure if this is making sense.


It is really RUN/PASS TRIANGLE. 

Simply put if you have 3 in the TRIANGLE run the base offtacke stuff (be it POWER/COUNTER/ISO concepts based on defensive reaction).  This is the BASE of what most defenses do on the perimeter (CONTAIN/FORCE/ALLEY).

4 in the Triangle run WEDGE/TRAP/DIVE inside (dependant on what the interior DLINE is doing) or THROW down the field (vertical/flood/crossing/layered concepts depending on zone/man perimeter play and MOFO/MOFC).
2 in the Triangle run SWEEP/THROW to the perimeter (In EAGLE/LOOSE/BUNCH/TRIPS we look to throw UNCOVERED first).

This means if we read both sides it allows us to one get an quick idea what we can do on each side and then decide on which side we want to attack.  This is especially beneficial when we are in a hybrid look (LOOSE or LOOSE OVER and compressed on the other side) as it allows us to quickly discern overloads/unbalanced looks on the defense and then quickly take advantage of them to the other side/in the middle.

The spread passing game has really evolved for me over the years as I have had a chance to simplify things down to a SLOT or CORNER read on our perimeter plays and a SAFETY-TO-EDGE read on our vertical/cross concepts.

The other thing we did a lot of this past season was when we went into TRIPS and wanted to run perimeter pass concepts and the concept we ran was a two receiver concept at its base we had two basic routes for the inside slot and it was based on the planning for that defense week to week and if we were in the RED ZONE.

1) He would simply run a SEAM route to hold the FS or threaten the deep middle.
2) He would run the BUBBLE which worked really well with our WHEEL and WHEEL based concepts as he essentially was a FOLLOW receiver to the WHEEL route and would settle in on the flat as the SLOT ran the wheel.  Often he was wide open in space.

Jack