Dumcoach Youth Football Forum

Offense => General Offense Discussion => Running Game and Rule Blocking => Topic started by: CoachDP on August 16, 2017, 11:17:12 AM

Title: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachDP on August 16, 2017, 11:17:12 AM
In reading some threads, I become reminded about the difficulty in teaching the pull successfully.  Some coaches simply refuse to teach it because it's too hard or takes too much time.  I am hoping to see a list of what coaches find challenging about teaching the pull.

--Dave
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Beansko82 on August 16, 2017, 11:37:24 AM
I haven't found teaching the mechanics of the pull to be all that difficult.  However the challenging part for me has been ensuring the the puller actually makes contact with the defender when he gets where he's going.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Coach Correa on August 16, 2017, 11:53:28 AM
ONE ANSWER 4 ALL CIRCLE DRILL ......
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on August 16, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
In reading some threads, I become reminded about the difficulty in teaching the pull successfully.  Some coaches simply refuse to teach it because it's too hard or takes too much time.  I am hoping to see a list of what coaches find challenging about teaching the pull.

--Dave

I used to be intimidated by it, since we didn't do it much as a player.  I was pretty lousy at coaching it for my first couple of years, too.

Pulling introduces moving parts into the offense, which adds to the complexity.  It's hard enough to get them blocking someone right across from them, let alone run sideways, find a hole, identify their man, and block him in the open field.

On the pull itself, there are really 4 things to coach and each one requires a lot of attention to detail, but they aren't that hard to coach once you know what you're doing:

1.  The first steps--we skip pull our wraps and open pull our kick outs and traps.  For us, a skip puller needs to get the good crossover step out of the blocks and then get out of it and gain depth on the second step.  A trap puller/kick out is an open pull where he should throw the playside elbow back ("start the lawnmower") and then rip with the other arm to get some momentum back into the pull.

2.  Getting around the trash--you need depth, but just the right amount of depth to get around the other OL in case someone gets blown up yet not so much that you lose leverage or take too long to get there.  On a trap/short pull the G needs to go back on the first step and attack back up into the DL on a 45 degree angle.  On a longer pull, the angle is flatter but he still needs to attack proper shoulder

3.  Getting to your assignment.  If you don't give kids clear rules here, they'll just pull and run into somebody.  Few things suck more than watching your kids pull around the corner, run right by the guy he's supposed to block, and then hit the wrong dude or doubling up on someone who's already blocked.  You really need to focus on a kid's eyes and where he's looking  For us, we tell them to simply kick out the first thing that shows outside the downblocks on open pulls and to track the PSLB throughout the skip pull and block that guy on wraps.  Then we work the wrapper's path to be tight to the downblock and come downhill to the next level.

4.  Fitting to your block with explosiveness.  Right shoulder right/left shoulder left for kick outs, the opposite for logs, and try to come downhill and fit with head outside on LBs.  That's the basis, but you also need to come in lower than the guy you're blocking and uncoil the hips to deliver a real blow with follow through.  A lot of kids just want to run in high and chest bump or they lower their head and dive at ankles/belt buckles without ever bringing the hips and surface--neither is good.

Another thing that can make it more challenging to coach within your system is how all of this fits with the backfield.  The backs, especially an under center QB, have to get out of the pullers' way.  Then they need to trust their pullers and fit behind the pull in the proper way--they need to hug the downblocks on kick outs and get in behind a wrapper to the second level.

You also need to coach the other OL up on how to properly fill for a puller--OL who are filling need to open up completely flat and get their head in front of a potential penetrator and make good contact on a DL's hip.  Backs who are filling need to let the pullers clear and then get their block.

Then you have to make sure that the pull truly fits into your scheme.  Sometimes I see teams try to reach a DL and pull outside of him, but they're not gap sound in their blocking or the reach block fails and the puller slams into the same guy they just wasted two blockers on.  Block down, kick out/log, then lead through the hole... that's a nice recipe for success.  It's all about leverage--pulling is a way to out leverage the defense by maneuvering the backside of your OL to the playside with inside-out leverage before they can get dudes there.

At times, kids can find it hard to remember who pulls and who to block on each play.  This is part of the reason I don't care for "fan and fold" schemes or having a bunch of different types of pulls and assignments that vary depending on the play.  We either pull to kick out or we pull to wrap to the first thing inside.  Occasionally we may tag a "log" block on there to turn a kick out into a log by changing the puller's aiming point.  That's it.

I really don't find it hard to coach now... but there are a lot of details there that people don't know at first.  With the young ones, it's a lot to polish up.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: jrk5150 on August 16, 2017, 11:58:47 AM
I'll give you three things -

1. Making a block in space is always one of the more difficult skills to execute for any player.

2. With bodies everywhere it can be hard to determine WHO to block.  We frequently spend time on here discussing how important it is for players to know who to block, as it makes them more confident, aggressive, etc., and that's from a static start.  When it comes to a puller, we frequently cannot tell him exactly who he's blocking until the play happens.

3. Closing the hole made by the puller.  With MPR rules, it can be difficult to find someone who can consistently shut down the hole previously occupied by the puller when it's possible the other team's fastest DL is trying to get through it.  We will NEVER win that talent battle, the other team will pretty much always have better talent trying to come through that hole than we have trying to close it.

Of course there is always a learning curve around path or...urgency...but those are workable.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: PSLCOACHROB on August 16, 2017, 12:00:31 PM
Making contact is not absolutely necesary. Eyes up to poa during the pull helps in finding a defender. Pulling to the C in zero splits is a whole different monster than with 2 ft splits. Not harder, I just do it different. Drop/ bucket step with inside foot and right to poa. Super easy in tight splits. Poa is more B gap imo. Bend it out a little if need be. One of the problems I have had is the center not firing out fast enough or the qb being too slow. Not a pulling problem though.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Vince148 on August 16, 2017, 12:04:10 PM
We just put in pulling the other day. We've been doing bucket step bird dogs in our on air drills every day. Then we put cones down for landmarks and where to pull. We set out a CB and a LB. For us, the biggest thing is making sure that the backside guard is pulling with his eyes on the LB. I thought about doing a skip pull, but decided that it would be much easier teaching one pulling technique.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 16, 2017, 12:13:51 PM
To me, pulling has always been a simple matter of getting out of a stance, running from A to B and throwing a block. In the DW, it took some time and effort to get right due to the tight spaces and precise footwork. I've always been curious why many coaches think that there's some "magic" involved when you ask a lineman to do this.

Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: COACH JC on August 16, 2017, 12:16:51 PM
The hardest part is teaching em to get get skinny & not get caught up in the trash. In practice they'll execute their elbow rips correctly, then in the game they ditch it.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dusty Ol Fart on August 16, 2017, 12:18:42 PM
My issue has always been with the rest of the OL as opposed to the actual person who pulls.   We seem to get caught up in Line Wash (Bad Blocks).  Now go figure, our Traps are pretty dang good?  ARGH.  LOL

We continue to work on them as we progress in our ability to block.  Never give up on em.  ;)
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dimson on August 16, 2017, 12:31:08 PM
I let the kid use their own technique for the most part as long as they get the job done. If they don't get the job done then I will focus on trying to improve their footwork if that is the issue. Honestly I mainly care that they get there and stay tight to the double team.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Vince148 on August 16, 2017, 12:33:24 PM
The hardest part is teaching em to get get skinny & not get caught up in the trash. In practice they'll execute their elbow rips correctly, then in the game they ditch it.
They ditch it in practice.

We go over steps EVERY DAY for 20+ minutes. First step bird dogs. Then get-offs. Then against shields. Everybody does them. Then we start live hitting yesterday and it's like they forgot what they just did 10 minutes earlier. Who just leans their body out. Who never moves their feet. Who takes their first step backwards. Really?!!!
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Michael on August 16, 2017, 12:38:10 PM
Other than stance the first few days, and lifting the sled (if we have one), we teach everything live.  I haven't done fit or steps in years.  Maybe a drill or two of steps every few years. 
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on August 16, 2017, 12:40:34 PM
They ditch it in practice.

We go over steps EVERY DAY for 20+ minutes. First step bird dogs. Then get-offs. Then against shields. Everybody does them. Then we start live hitting yesterday and it's like they forgot what they just did 10 minutes earlier. Who just leans their body out. Who never moves their feet. Who takes their first step backwards. Really?!!!

Do them in team.  Not just in bird dogs, but line the whole team up and walk through their steps and assignments for each play.  Do this at the initial install, then have them do it again, taking each of the first 3-5 steps on a whistle.  Correct any errors you see step by step before you blow the whistle to move onto the next step.  Make sure they see how it fits into the whole.

If you don't have enough kids to do 11 on 11 team (even just as a walkthrough), do an inside drill with the OL against a defensive front or even bust out bags/trash cans to stand in for "defenders" and have them go that way while coaches handle the "moving parts" of the defense.

Kids can get really good at a drill and learn to execute what you're asking for there without having the slightest clue how that translates into the game at times.  Like the old thing about kids getting really good at bag drills... then thinking they're doing them to learn how to jump over people who've fallen on the ground or because the coach just wanted to play a game.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachDP on August 16, 2017, 12:42:04 PM
I'll give you three things -

1. Making a block in space is always one of the more difficult skills to execute for any player.

--We've eliminated "blocking in space" by having the defense come to us.


2. With bodies everywhere it can be hard to determine WHO to block.

--We've eliminated this by having our offense "keep their relationships" to each other.  We don't chase defenders.  They come to us.  If a 9-technique is so far away from our Fullback's kick-out that he's already kicked-out, the Fullback will not chase out that far.  We don't have to kick out a Wide-9; we have to run up inside our Fullback successfully. 

When it comes to a puller, we frequently cannot tell him exactly who he's blocking until the play happens.

--In our approach, our pullers are no longer "scrape and kick" or "scrape and seal."  Now they are tucked behind the playside line, getting north as soon as they round the Center.

3. Closing the hole made by the puller.  With MPR rules, it can be difficult to find someone who can consistently shut down the hole previously occupied by the puller when it's possible the other team's fastest DL is trying to get through it.  We will NEVER win that talent battle, the other team will pretty much always have better talent trying to come through that hole than we have trying to close it.

--The elimination of the Shoeshine/Superman/Scramble/Cut in the FBZ has definitely given a new challenge to our offense.  It might be resolved in going unbalanced, pulling the BSG and BSTE and/or holding the Center accountable for taking away the backside A-gap.

--Dave

Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: jrk5150 on August 16, 2017, 12:57:21 PM
Well, Dave, my teams have struggled to close a ONE MAN pulling gap - I haven't pulled G and T since the first half of the 2010 season.  I can't even imagine trying to close a two man gap, LOL.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on August 16, 2017, 01:03:10 PM


Are you guys playing by NFHS rules?

Scramble blocking and cutting are still legal in the FBZ as long as you can get in front of the defender to do it.  It's clipping (which might include "shoeshine") that was outlawed in the FBZ a year ago.

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/football-rules-changes-2017/ (https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/football-rules-changes-2017/)
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: COCoachKC on August 16, 2017, 01:15:14 PM
To me, pulling has always been a simple matter of getting out of a stance, running from A to B and throwing a block. In the DW, it took some time and effort to get right due to the tight spaces and precise footwork. I've always been curious why many coaches think that there's some "magic" involved when you ask a lineman to do this.
Lar,

Three drills took the "magic" out of it:
     1) Blocking circuit (early season) - we positioned players based on natural abilities.  We had no time (nor patience) to try and make a square peg round.  If you can't seal or kickout block, you certainly aren't playing guard, tackle or fullback.
     2) Funnel drill.  Lots of funnel drill!  This is essential for finding bodies in space.  Also helps hone the control and aggressiveness of the block.
     3) Towel drill - Not only did this help the running backs, it also "pushed" the pullers to get into the hole at full speed.

Kent
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachDP on August 16, 2017, 01:38:58 PM
my teams have struggled to close a ONE MAN pulling gap

John, how deep are you off the LOS?  We are D E E P.  As a matter of fact, the refs started in on us about how deep were were on the LOS, how close my Fullback was to the LOS and our shifting.  We were never penalized and I had to tell them what was legal and what wasn't.  They said they were getting complaints from the other team's coaches.  I asked if I could complain about them.  Stupid, pre-teen little girl complaints.  Either throw a flag on us, or shut up. 

--Dave
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachDP on August 16, 2017, 01:40:44 PM
Are you guys playing by NFHS rules?

--Yes..

Scramble blocking and cutting are still legal in the FBZ as long as you can get in front of the defender to do it.  It's clipping (which might include "shoeshine") that was outlawed in the FBZ a year ago.

--I know.  But getting the officials to understand the difference takes an act of congress.  And not even then.

--Dave
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: jrk5150 on August 16, 2017, 01:49:17 PM
John, how deep are you off the LOS? 

Deep.  Apparently not deep enough.  I am HOPING last year was an aberration - short roster, few options.  I THINK I have a couple of kids who can do it this year.  But again, as always, it's a struggle with the MPR and the fact I need some of those positions to put kids in who have limitations.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on August 16, 2017, 02:03:20 PM
CoachDP,

I know that feeling...

After the last 4 years, I've given up trying to explain the concept of "illegal man downfield."  When your FS is being blocked by the LG on a pass play, something's wrong...
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 16, 2017, 03:02:50 PM
Lar,

Three drills took the "magic" out of it:
     1) Blocking circuit (early season) - we positioned players based on natural abilities.  We had no time (nor patience) to try and make a square peg round.  If you can't seal or kickout block, you certainly aren't playing guard, tackle or fullback.
     2) Funnel drill.  Lots of funnel drill!  This is essential for finding bodies in space.  Also helps hone the control and aggressiveness of the block.
     3) Towel drill - Not only did this help the running backs, it also "pushed" the pullers to get into the hole at full speed.

Kent

For sure. The exception was those two twins who wouldn't look us in the eye. Two square pegs if I ever saw one and both turned out to be relentless pullers.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: COCoachKC on August 16, 2017, 03:07:05 PM
For sure. The exception was those two twins who wouldn't look us in the eye. Two square pegs if I ever saw one and both turned out to be relentless pullers.

For those two it was getting over their fear of...EVERYTHING!  Cripes, they had a hard time talking to someone they didn't know let alone hit somebody.

One of those kids went on to play through high school.  The other gave up football in the 8th grade.

Kent
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dimson on August 16, 2017, 03:23:06 PM
ONE ANSWER 4 ALL CIRCLE DRILL ......
Can you diagram this kind sir?
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: COCoachKC on August 16, 2017, 03:35:28 PM
In reading some threads, I become reminded about the difficulty in teaching the pull successfully.  Some coaches simply refuse to teach it because it's too hard or takes too much time.  I am hoping to see a list of what coaches find challenging about teaching the pull.

--Dave
Dave,

For those coaches I simply believe it is because they can't coach it.  I have seen kids do some pretty amazing things when TAUGHT correctly.  The simplest approach is to write off ones perceptions as reality.  We have heard and read all too often how the kids "can't" do this or that.  That is true when they haven't been instructed how and why.  But just because some one believes they can't isn't proof that they can't.

I would like to see what was challenging for those coaches who struggle to teach pulling.  And I am not thinking of Mahonz who chooses not to pull because he would prefer to spend time on other things.

Kent
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: mahonz on August 16, 2017, 04:49:31 PM
Dave,

For those coaches I simply believe it is because they can't coach it.  I have seen kids do some pretty amazing things when TAUGHT correctly.  The simplest approach is to write off ones perceptions as reality.  We have heard and read all too often how the kids "can't" do this or that.  That is true when they haven't been instructed how and why.  But just because some one believes they can't isn't proof that they can't.

I would like to see what was challenging for those coaches who struggle to teach pulling.  And I am not thinking of Mahonz who chooses not to pull because he would prefer to spend time on other things.

Kent

Very true. I simply decided pulling wasn't really for me. Its a philosophy thing. I even happily coached up the DW by the book one season.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: COACH JC on August 16, 2017, 05:35:55 PM
They ditch it in practice.

We go over steps EVERY DAY for 20+ minutes. First step bird dogs. Then get-offs. Then against shields. Everybody does them. Then we start live hitting yesterday and it's like they forgot what they just did 10 minutes earlier. Who just leans their body out. Who never moves their feet. Who takes their first step backwards. Really?!!!

In my experience the hardest thing to teach kids is to bend their knees, stay low, & otherittle things like ripping w/ the elbows & getting skinny.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dimson on August 16, 2017, 10:27:42 PM
How do you teach pulling? With a bucket step or a cross over step?
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on August 16, 2017, 11:20:05 PM
How do you teach pulling? With a bucket step or a cross over step?

Bucket step for open pull.
Crossover step for skip pull.

It's a little different from a "bucket step" on zone, though.  It has to be more sudden and the upper body has to move with force to generate more torque out of the blocks and on the second step to get momentum going.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 17, 2017, 01:02:54 AM
How do you teach pulling? With a bucket step or a cross over step?

In DTDW with TKO, always a crossover. In fact, we even stopped calling it a "pull" and called it a "tunnel block".

In Megawide splits, lawnmower all the way.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dimson on August 17, 2017, 09:46:16 AM
In DTDW with TKO, always a crossover. In fact, we even stopped calling it a "pull" and called it a "tunnel block".

In Megawide splits, lawnmower all the way.
Lawnmower?
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 17, 2017, 09:53:54 AM
Lawnmower?

Let's say you're a left guard, pulling to the right. Reach down and start your lawn mower (rope start) with your right hand, pulling your elbow back hard and stepping 90 degrees with your right foot (bucket step), so that you are now parallel to the LOS. Now, run and block.

With our splits, precision is not a consideration. Plenty of room.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: PSLCOACHROB on August 17, 2017, 09:56:06 AM
In DTDW with TKO, always a crossover. In fact, we even stopped calling it a "pull" and called it a "tunnel block".

In Megawide splits, lawnmower all the way.
I don't look at what we were doing as a pull either. Especially if you are recessed as far back as possible. With a full recess you can almost just cross over and we taught it that way for a while. More recently I taught a drop step after a conversation with Joe's oline coach. It worked for the kids who did it. I don't micromanage that. If a kid felt more comfortable with a more traditional pull then I let them do it. Last season (with an emphasis on last) I couldn't get my header to agree with a max recess so the cross over wasn't really an option.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachCalande on August 25, 2017, 03:32:56 PM
In reading some threads, I become reminded about the difficulty in teaching the pull successfully.  Some coaches simply refuse to teach it because it's too hard or takes too much time.  I am hoping to see a list of what coaches find challenging about teaching the pull.

--Dave

Absolutely nothing

Teach it, demonstrate it, drill it, correct, practice etc.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on August 26, 2017, 03:36:05 PM
Let's say you're a left guard, pulling to the right. Reach down and start your lawn mower (rope start) with your right hand, pulling your elbow back hard and stepping 90 degrees with your right foot (bucket step), so that you are now parallel to the LOS. Now, run and block.

With our splits, precision is not a consideration. Plenty of room.

Good stuff.

A little tip, as I've mentioned here a few times, is to have him throw a hard rip with the backside arm (here, that would be the left arm) on the second step to help him get moving out of the blocks.

With trap, we've found the 1st step really needs to be at more like a 45 degree angle, or at least somewhere between a 90 and a 45.  He's not pulling flat to the LOS: he's going up into the LOS at an angle ("back and attack") to get his head on the inside of the DT we're trapping.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 26, 2017, 05:41:33 PM
Good stuff.

A little tip, as I've mentioned here a few times, is to have him throw a hard rip with the backside arm (here, that would be the left arm) on the second step to help him get moving out of the blocks.
Noted. I'll make sure to add that to my coaching points.

Quote
With trap, we've found the 1st step really needs to be at more like a 45 degree angle, or at least somewhere between a 90 and a 45.  He's not pulling flat to the LOS: he's going up into the LOS at an angle ("back and attack") to get his head on the inside of the DT we're trapping.

I think with our splits, our puller will be flat and might even be working backwards a little. We'll see. The team we're playing is ripe for a trap, or at least have my guard pull and kick. I just scouted them today and they are in a 44, playing 2 Techs and 9 Techs.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: MHcoach on August 26, 2017, 06:36:10 PM
L
 
Since we have large Splits also, our line is back so it's important the angle is tight off the center's butt.

Joe
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Seabass on August 27, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
I have never found it difficult to pull linemen. Sometimes those guys don't make great open field blocks because they can tend to be "out over their ski's". Same way they miss open field tackles. They are out of control. The act of pulling and getting them where they need to be has never been difficult.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Bob Goodman on August 31, 2017, 09:58:42 AM
The pull itself isn't hard, especially if the puller starts in a 2-pt. stance.  What's hard is what happens next.  The puller might have a relatively hard or relatively easy assignment, depending on how far the puller has to go to his target.

But even once they get that down, teams can still have trouble implementing pull assignments as part of their offense because they can't cover the puller's space vs. penetr'n.  Our 9U team has abandoned pulling for that reason, because of a certain subtlety of wing T scheme that eludes many of the coaches in the club.  The whole club is trying to run versions of Newton HS's recently-installed wing T scheme.  However, they're using splits that are too wide and not recessing the OL -- contradicting the written instructions that the HS uses, apparently!  2 days ago we were scrimmaging up vs. the Super PeeWees (10U -- "Super" really means "Infra"  ;) ), and their coach even "corrected" our OL as they lined up once for "giving up" space!  The Super PeeWees do cross-block, though.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 31, 2017, 10:55:12 AM
Well, the pull itself wasn't in issue. Looked really good, actually. The problem for us turned out to be a combination of distance traveled and the environment he is running through. With mega splits, we have never been about moving bodies. Get in the way, stay in the way, butt to the ball. Got a lesson in physics last night when one of our gifted athletes was playing a 1 and 2 tech against us. He put our newbie guard 2 yards in the backfield. Normally, we're okay with that. Sounds crazy, I know . . .but it works . . . normally. Doesn't work when he's in the way of our other pulling guard. When we went the other way, he was putting our "people mover" one yard into the backfield and getting in the way of THAT guard.

OC is moaning about how this isn't working. I'm moaning about why the hell aren't we trapping HIM instead of the guy outside of him. There are actually a half dozen good reasons not to trap him with a guard.  Anyway, Mahonz was listening and offered up the wham. So rather than hammer away at square pegs and round holes, we will wham our H back on our traps. Makes a ton of sense based on what I saw last night. It's going in tonight.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: PSLCOACHROB on August 31, 2017, 01:23:56 PM
Well, the pull itself wasn't in issue. Looked really good, actually. The problem for us turned out to be a combination of distance traveled and the environment he is running through. With mega splits, we have never been about moving bodies. Get in the way, stay in the way, butt to the ball. Got a lesson in physics last night when one of our gifted athletes was playing a 1 and 2 tech against us. He put our newbie guard 2 yards in the backfield. Normally, we're okay with that. Sounds crazy, I know . . .but it works . . . normally. Doesn't work when he's in the way of our other pulling guard. When we went the other way, he was putting our "people mover" one yard into the backfield and getting in the way of THAT guard.

OC is moaning about how this isn't working. I'm moaning about why the hell aren't we trapping HIM instead of the guy outside of him. There are actually a half dozen good reasons not to trap him with a guard.  Anyway, Mahonz was listening and offered up the wham. So rather than hammer away at square pegs and round holes, we will wham our H back on our traps. Makes a ton of sense based on what I saw last night. It's going in tonight.
I don't see the point much with pulling with mega splits in beast.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Michael on August 31, 2017, 01:29:33 PM
I don't see the point much with pulling with mega splits in beast.

We would have needed cross country runners.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 31, 2017, 01:54:35 PM
I don't see the point much with pulling with mega splits in beast.

Nah, this wasn't beast. It was our "Pro Ace Mega Wing/empty hybrid"

However. . . I toyed with the idea of pulling in Beast. The logic was getting a "wasted" guard to kick the EMLOS frees my middle sniffer to climb. The problem was getting the rest of the staff to stop laughing long enough to explain it.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: DumCoach on August 31, 2017, 04:13:09 PM
I haven't found teaching the mechanics of the pull to be all that difficult.  However the challenging part for me has been ensuring the the puller actually makes contact with the defender when he gets where he's going.

This! 
I remember coaching 7's to run Toss by pulling BS guard and tackle.  Got them to pull flat and hit the proper hole.  They both went through with big smiles and bright shiny faces.  They were so proud of themselves!

They didn't block a soul.   ::)

Trying to get them to pull while looking at their man caused them to lose that great pull (Too hard to keep their eyes on their man and run the pull route.).  It was like trying to teach them to tie their shoes blindfolded and so still no blocks made.

So, for Toss right, I had left guard (LG) put his right hand on QB's left shoulderpad and left Tackle (LT) put his right hand on LG's left shoulderpad.  I called it the "choo-choo" train with QB the "engine", LG the "boxcar", and LT the "caboose".  QB led through the hole.  LG was to separate from QB as soon as he made the turn and block first wrong colored jersey inside.  When LT saw LG and QB divide, he (actually she) ran through the space between them and took first wrong colored jersey (On paper, FS). 

Gain was maybe 4 yards tops.  Problem:  QB was not big enough to block corner, LG got run over by stud LBer, and LT missed in space.

So... next solution.
"Choo-choo" train now went through the hole but stayed together.  RB put his left hand on QB's right shoulderpad and the entire train went through the hole with QB leading and headed right at the corner (or OLB). QB aimed at defender's outside shoulder. 

Four blockers (LT, LG, QB, RB) hit that defender in a "flying wedge".  We called it "Casey Jones'ing" the defender.  He was nowhere to be seen.  Meanwhile, FS and stud LBer couldn't get through the wedge.

First try, touchdown!

Really a strange looking TD.  They were going about 8 mph in order to stay together but scored from 40 yards out.  Nobody was more surprised than me. 





 
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dusty Ol Fart on September 01, 2017, 07:36:05 AM
"flying wedge'

Football's version of Duck Devastation!   :D
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Coach Jeff on January 24, 2019, 01:35:31 PM
For us, sometimes our puller will pull to flat and won't be able to kick out or trap the defender. In youth football, most defenses won't squeeze the down blocks so it doesn't matter much, but it seem like it takes a while for our kids to understand the aiming point on the trap and the trap path. We want our pullers to pull, climb and the aiming point is the inside hip of the defender we are trapping. But when you work on it regularly they get it eventually.   
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Bill03 on January 24, 2019, 02:02:30 PM
My biggest problem teaching the young guys is sometimes the get to worried about getting to the correct spot and forget to block their man.. can't tell you how many times that happens. And another one is on counter we kick out end with bsg , and the tackle just follows him then realizes to late.  This is also fun to see on film that night. We drill everyday on  pulling, just need to teach better. Going to be sitting down with DP next month to try and get better at that too.

Bill
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on January 24, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
For us, sometimes our puller will pull to flat and won't be able to kick out or trap the defender. In youth football, most defenses won't squeeze the down blocks so it doesn't matter much, but it seem like it takes a while for our kids to understand the aiming point on the trap and the trap path. We want our pullers to pull, climb and the aiming point is the inside hip of the defender we are trapping. But when you work on it regularly they get it eventually.

"Back and attack."  Open up at a 45 degree angle, then hit back up into the LOS, aiming for the inside hip of the man being trapped.

The issues I've had are pullers either opening too flat or too deep, kids hitting the man straight up instead of fitting their head inside on the inside hip for leverage, kids stopping their feet on contact, and kids just bending over and running into the man being trapped instead of extending their hips to create lift on contact.  All of that can be coached out of them, as you point out.

With the Trap or any kick out scheme, the back needs to know to hit things tight to the downblocks and come downhill.  Young/inexperienced backs will often want to run around the trap block or fit in the G's backside rather than hugging the downblocks.  That kills the play.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on January 24, 2019, 02:37:05 PM
My biggest problem teaching the young guys is sometimes the get to worried about getting to the correct spot and forget to block their man.. can't tell you how many times that happens. And another one is on counter we kick out end with bsg , and the tackle just follows him then realizes to late.  This is also fun to see on film that night. We drill everyday on  pulling, just need to teach better. Going to be sitting down with DP next month to try and get better at that too.

Bill

This is why you really need to walk through it with some defenders out there instead of just running to cones or bags, like I see kids doing.  There's nothing wrong with taking a kid by the back of his pads and physically walking him from his stance to where and who he needs to hit.

One they realize they're kicking out the first thing past the downblocks and the wrapper is going to turn up off that last butt and just block the first thing that shows, you're good.  I'm big on teaching the technique differently for a kick out (open pull and just kill the first thing in your track) and a wrap (skip pull with eyes on the 1st LB past the C) to help reinforce this stuff.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: ZACH on January 24, 2019, 04:39:20 PM
In reading some threads, I become reminded about the difficulty in teaching the pull successfully.  Some coaches simply refuse to teach it because it's too hard or takes too much time.  I am hoping to see a list of what coaches find challenging about teaching the pull.

--Dave

Im my org  i find the commitment to the pull is why they cant pull.  Its a skill that requires muscle memory, teaching, and repetition. One of or all those reasons is why i see my coaches have difficulty pulling.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dusty Ol Fart on January 24, 2019, 06:57:20 PM
Like everything else it goes back to execution.


I've had some groups who can Pull and Trap, Others were more short trap than Pull, some couldnt do either.  Two things I see with groups who struggle is A) Quickness and B) inability hold the base blocks. 


What does that mean.  Quickness is a MUST to get out and go (Pull and Trap) and get on the Base Block.   This is more evident with a Double Pull than a Single.  Same holds true with a Long Trap v a Short One.  If your Non Pullers/Trappers cannot execute and hold their blocks, the Guy with the "Long Pull or Trap" gets caught up in what I call Line Leakage.  Can you continue to rep it?  Sure!!  IMHO, the real issue becomes, just like spending huge amount of time working on a "Perfect" 3 point stance, at what point do you scrap the idea and work on something else? 

Many of us have a limited time with kids to get plays inserted and running.  I cant waste 2 practices if we cannot execute it.  File it for later or Scrap it and move on.  In general I try to get 2 plays inserted and running well during Preseason O Practices.  If I think we can handle it I'll add another.  Byt the next O practice ALWAYS starts off with running the previous plays over and over.  Then trying to add a couple more.


Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Coach Correa on January 24, 2019, 07:43:26 PM
We teach the pick pocket technique and teach puller to get his head aiming for inside ear hole . Its a seal step while reaching wit right hand for right hip of center using his hip to keep us square and  tighter with the momentum helping us stay inside out on 1st man past center assuming trap is going to the right.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Sharkbait on January 25, 2019, 12:43:52 AM
I have had no problem teaching pulling to bobble heads. Some of the coaches in my org said it wasn't worth the investment 7u kids had no problem picking it up. I think we just need to to adjust our expectations, at the youngest level it may not be perfect but they can definitely do it. This year at 9u it was a normal part of the game for the oline. I think if we change the way we communicate and teach with the younger guys, they are more than capable of performing more complicated techniques.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachCalande on January 27, 2019, 07:41:34 PM
“ the pull?”

Which pull? There are several and the footwork and path vary.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachDP on January 28, 2019, 01:51:47 PM
Which pull? There are several and the footwork and path vary.

ANY pull.

--Dave
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: coachgregory on January 29, 2019, 02:06:26 PM


I did away with the cut a long time ago.  I teach a radical down block. Aim for the near hip of the center and "trap" the first thing that crosses your face.  It works for us and it allows us to build off of it as we can make some sideline calls when we see the backside aligning with 2 or less on the backside perimeter or vacating (moving playside) and leaving the backside with two or less.  Our most basic call is RAZZEL ( any "R" word from the sideline) run a backfield only WB REVERSE (rest of the offense is executing play called (POWER/POWER SWEEP/POWER PASS).  With the radical downblock anyone blocked is not getting into the backfield if properly executed.   We have a few other sideline calls but they work better with the radical down block.  It doesn't take a good linemen to execute the block and an MPP can make the block on a superior DLINEMEN.  THe use of WEDGE, running the play the other way, and sideline hot calls keeps the target honest.

 
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Bob Goodman on January 29, 2019, 03:12:49 PM
I did away with the cut a long time ago.  I teach a radical down block. Aim for the near hip of the center and "trap" the first thing that crosses your face.
You mean, hit him in the side?
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dusty Ol Fart on January 29, 2019, 03:19:23 PM
You mean, hit him in the side?

Bob, yes it can be from the side.  Not every block is "Squared Up". 
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Bob Goodman on January 29, 2019, 03:37:23 PM
Bob, yes it can be from the side.  Not every block is "Squared Up".
I know that, but what I want to know is whether Coach Gregory is doing that when he means they trap them.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: coachgregory on January 29, 2019, 07:38:40 PM
I know that, but what I want to know is whether Coach Gregory is doing that when he means they trap them.

Correct.

The Pull side TE essentially uses a short trap (influence) technique and aims for the near hip of the center.  His goal is to plant his outside shoulder in the first thing that crosses his face.  Once he makes contact he drives the defender inside and slams his (the pull side te) inside hip to the center.  As long as the PULL TE is getting off the ball and doing it with decent explosiveness he will generate enough angular force to drive anyone that is attempting to fire across the line back and inside to the center.    At first I don't stress about hands or arms....I just want him getting his outside shoulder on the first thing that attempts to cross the line of scrimmage as violently as possible.  This allows our MPP or lesser athlete to easily match up on stud defensive linemen.  And if the dlinemen decides to play games with the PULLTE then the block did its job because he can't play around with our PSTE and penetrate in the backfield before the play is in the hole playside.  With zero splits and the backed offensive line it is an easy block to execute.  Once he gets the get off, aiming point, strike point, and slamming his inside hip to the center we start to focus on hand/arm location.  I have tried teaching the hands/arms initially with it and have found they spend to much time focusing on their upper body and the key is the get off and lower body explosion into the defender.  A couple of good shots and it will slow down an aggressive defender.  Coupled with play side downs, doubles, wedges coming at them it gets them on their heels.   
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Seabass on May 13, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
Now having been around the game a few more years I am of the belief that "pulling" might be the most over thought, over complicated and over coached aspect of the game.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachDP on September 12, 2019, 12:22:37 PM
Having joined up with the a Double Wing page on Facebook, I am surprised by the number of "coaches" on there who claim to run the Double Wing, who not only base-block, but also don't pull.  Despite this, they're glad to argue that they run the Double Wing, but they had to "dumb down" the offense for their (fill in the blank) age level.  (They also want to claim that the service academies are running the Double Wing. ::) )

It's amazing to me that dads will spend their time telling their Backs how to run a play, but won't spend any time with their linemen on how to block the play.  Yes, it's faster, simpler and easier to say, "Just block the man in front of you," but that certainly isn't putting that player in the best position to succeed, and it minimizes the responsibility of his job (i.e., "Just...."). And yet the game day lament is still, "You've got to BLOCK!"  Where was all of this impetus during the week?  And then the post-game complaints ("They just won't block"), when during the week, (not) teaching blocking was either an oversight, or a hindrance.

There's really no aspect of this offense that requires "dumbing down."  The only difference in our approach from high school to youth, is how deep we go into the playbook, due to time constraints.   With high school football now being year-round (in NC), it allows us far more teaching time in the off-season.   However, our core plays are the same, our blocking is the same, our tags are the same, our fundamentals are the same and our approach we use to teaching them are the same.

(Really young) kids can pull.  Kids can block and kids can run.  That's all pulling is.  But if they're not doing it well, then that's on you.  If you don't teach the pull well, you can't expect your kids to execute it well.  As a matter of fact, you shouldn't expect your kids to do anything better than you can teach it, yet that seems to be the modus operandi for most youth coaches, which is why I still hear the most common lament of all, "I've got all these kids who've never played before."  That comment tells me that the coach has no belief in his ability to teach, and that he's simply hoping that the kids already know what they're doing.

If your kids don't know who to block, how to block, why they block and how it effects the success of that play, then your blocking will probably not be very good.  Then you might as well pitch the ball as wide as you can to your fast guy and hope he can get outside of contain.  But don't blame your kids for what you won't/don't/can't teach.

--Dave
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: rpatric on September 13, 2019, 07:52:26 AM
Dave,

I run into the same level of incompetency on various Facebook sites, riddled with self proclaimed "experts" that don't know the difference between a sneeze and a wet fart. I wouldn't even waste your time reasoning with those people. They are not on your level. I frequently visit a page devoted to offensive and defensive line play and about 1 in 100 posts are useful. I had a "coach" literally cuss me out for telling him that he needs to coach his players to be aggressive rather than yell at them for not being aggressive. Apparently kids are either "bad asses" or "pussies", and there is no changing that! I removed myself from the conversation, didn't even want to dignify him with a response.

I'm playing against a "Double Wing" team tomorrow that doesn't pull either. The coaches just sit on the sideline and yell at the players for not "blocking someone" or hitting the non existing hole created by the non existing blocks generated by the non existing blocking rules. I witnessed this last weekend when I scouted them from their sideline. No motion, no deception, no real scheme. They line up in a DW formation and that's about the only thing DW about what they are doing.

I guess my point is, Facebook is a platform for know it all's and rarely a place to actually strike up an intelligent conversation, especially for someone of your expertise on a subject you are a master of.

BTW, the COD has really benefitted our team Coach! We went toe to toe with the "bullies" of our league last weekend. We lost a nail biter on a BS no call offensive PI followed by a bobbled, dropped pass fell on in the end zone for a TD??? We lost 12-7, but this team murdered us last year 34-0 and again in playoffs 24-0! By the 4th quarter they we done, and our kids were knocking the shit out of them. My team of 22 has 13 kids who have never played before, 0 studs, and maybe 5 really good players. That said, we work extremely hard and give amazing effort which puts us in the position to beat anyone.

Sorry for hijacking this thread guys, rant over!

Ryan
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: blockandtackle on September 13, 2019, 10:38:56 AM
Facebook groups are the worst.  So many people on there are "experts" who have no idea what they are talking about.  I think most of us have dealt with coaches like that in real life.

As a pet peeve, it kills me when people call Flexbone teams "Double Wing" or "Wing-T" and are absolutely certain there's no difference between the three.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: CoachDP on September 13, 2019, 11:20:15 AM
Facebook groups are the worst.  So many people on there are "experts" who have no idea what they are talking about.  I think most of us have dealt with coaches like that in real life.

As a pet peeve, it kills me when people call Flexbone teams "Double Wing" or "Wing-T" and are absolutely certain there's no difference between the three.

The funny thing about this group is that is says the following in the FB description:

DESCRIPTION
Dedicated to THE DOUBLE WING OFFENSE (not just some formation with 2 wings) and of course the POWER Offtackle Play. Some may hate it, think it's not relevant but they have to respect it! If they don't they will be crushed by it!


So while it says it's not simply a formation with two Wings, the doofuses still think it's simply a formation with two Wings.  Of course, the other doofuses think they're running the Wishbone offense, simply because of their formation.  And so it goes...

--Dave
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Bob Goodman on September 13, 2019, 02:48:27 PM
Ya know...there have been double wing formations and associated systems since long before Markham's.  And backs who might be labeled slots by some are commonly known as wingbacks if they're in that relationship with the tackle and the end is split far away from them, and rightly so because the role they play in the offense is more that of a wingback than of a slot receiver.  So I wouldn't rag on those who say they run "the" double wing, regardless of what their system is.  Or those who say they run "the" wing T regardless of whether it has any closer relationship to Delaware style than any other "T" variation.  I might look askance at any who say they're running "single wing" if it's a wing T formation, but have to admit that, technically, they're still correct.  And I've long since given up on complaining about anybody's positioning of any of the "-backs".  It just may take longer to communicate with them to figure out what they mean.

What would bemuse me is if someone used a certain formation in the expectation that how the players lined up was going to make the results of their plays the same as they are from a completely different system that uses that formation.  And that does seem to go on a lot in discussion of presumably Markham-style double wing offenses.  I don't think I'll ever get why people would rather pull OL predictably from one side to the other instead of just lining them up there to begin with, just because they want to feel like part of the double wing family instead of the single wing one.
Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Dusty Ol Fart on September 13, 2019, 04:15:50 PM
So it has been said for as long as I have been on this Forum.

A Formation IS NOT an Offense.


Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: Wing-n-It on September 13, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
I don't think I'll ever get why people would rather pull OL predictably from one side to the other instead of just lining them up there to begin with,
I cant answer for others but I pull because I like the angle and the force the pulling guard kicks the DE out with in my offense. I also like to make the defense make a choice when someone either goes in motion or pulls, OR both.

Maybe its just my personality, maybe its just what we do, but it fits and it works for me.

Title: Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
Post by: spidermac on September 19, 2019, 02:44:29 PM
I have my 8's pulling in a spread offense :) actually pulling the TE's (tackles, but because it is 8 man, they are considered ends). Not kicking out with them, having them climb to create a lane, make those second level defenders make a choice...left, right or take on the block...

One of my assistant coaches is a former college lineman...and it is so refreshing to have someone (other than my son) who understands the importance of teaching the bigs how to do their jobs working with me with the bigs...it really is great, if he doesn't understand why I am blocking something the way I am, he asks, and if he thinks he has a better idea, he suggests...I had to miss a practice because of a family commitment a couple of weeks ago, and I wasn't worried about him breaking anything :)