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Defense => General Defense Discussion => Topic started by: DumCoach on August 13, 2019, 12:11:57 AM

Title: Back to tackling
Post by: DumCoach on August 13, 2019, 12:11:57 AM
So I'm coaching 7-8's in a USA tackling league.  For an open field tackle I have the "Hawk" tackle.  Defensively, It looks like I'm in Jack's 6-3 in "Red" call.  I will need to teach an inside run tackling technique.  What's everybody running?  A YouTube link would be nice.  I'm visual.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: patriotsfatboy1 on August 13, 2019, 08:46:05 AM
I am not sure that I understand the question.  I have taught Hawk tackling and ran Jack's 6-3.  If we are in Red, I assume that you are asking about what the LB's tackling technique will be.  If it is an outside run, then they are going to have near (outside) shoulder to near hip of the back.  It would be the same for an inside run - near shoulder (inside) to near hip of the back.

With 7/8's, I am looking to keep it as simple as possible and as consistent as possible.  It is hard enough for them to learn one technique well.  Start there. 

Is that the question?
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: ZACH on August 13, 2019, 08:52:45 AM
My experiance has been same/same.

Wheres your head?  Answer back hip.

If hes comming from straight ahead? Answer, pick a side and "cut" him side ways. * we only attack half a man, so its "hawk tackle" with out that silly roll.

https://youtu.be/_TcTFqlVQLk

It ends up looking like half a tackle and half a bronco mount.

 
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: terrypjohnson on August 13, 2019, 09:18:04 AM
Thank you, Coach Zach. My team this year much less experienced than last year. This will help them learn quickly!
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 13, 2019, 02:12:40 PM
The USA Football cert materials say that the aiming point on a head on tackle is "near pec". Sounds like a good way to break your neck.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: DumCoach on August 13, 2019, 02:22:19 PM
I am not sure that I understand the question.  I have taught Hawk tackling and ran Jack's 6-3.  If we are in Red, I assume that you are asking about what the LB's tackling technique will be.  If it is an outside run, then they are going to have near (outside) shoulder to near hip of the back.  It would be the same for an inside run - near shoulder (inside) to near hip of the back.

With 7/8's, I am looking to keep it as simple as possible and as consistent as possible.  It is hard enough for them to learn one technique well.  Start there. 

Is that the question?

We see it the same but those 6-3 coaches I'm working with all agreed that the hawk tackle was an open field tackle and not inside.  When I asked what they used for an inside tackle they got real vague, real fast, but it sounded to me like an "eyes to the sky" chest plate tackle.   

I was rather hoping for something else.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 13, 2019, 02:26:03 PM
When I asked what they used for an inside tackle they got real vague, real fast

lol.

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: mahonz on August 13, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
So I'm coaching 7-8's in a USA tackling league.  For an open field tackle I have the "Hawk" tackle.  Defensively, It looks like I'm in Jack's 6-3 in "Red" call.  I will need to teach an inside run tackling technique.  What's everybody running?  A YouTube link would be nice.  I'm visual.

Grab Somebody !!!! :P
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: JustPlay on August 13, 2019, 04:16:14 PM
What do you teach as far as contain. Inside hip ?
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: Wing-n-It on August 13, 2019, 04:39:15 PM
Clark, When I coached the 6-3 it was bite the pit (Arm Pit) Which pit depended on the defensive player.

As you know from Jacks D we have some working inside out (backside LB) and Mike and playside LB outside in so the aiming point was different,  Opposite pit.

Most of our disruption and tackles came from our DEs from very hard angles. They closed in a hurry and hunted very well. They mainly worked outside in on inside runs, but their assignment would change with sweeps as they hunted inside out



Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: patriotsfatboy1 on August 13, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
We see it the same but those 6-3 coaches I'm working with all agreed that the hawk tackle was an open field tackle and not inside.  When I asked what they used for an inside tackle they got real vague, real fast, but it sounded to me like an "eyes to the sky" chest plate tackle.   

I was rather hoping for something else.

I like being clear with kids of all ages. Sometimes that is keeping it simple (usually with less experienced players) and sometimes is it a little more complex.

I figure that have all kids attacking the ball carrier with first guy going near shoulder to near thigh with head behind is easy. Guys 2-11 are ripping and stripping and making sure the ball carrier doesn’t break free. With the 6-3, I focused on first read, gap responsibilities, BCR responsibilities and pass coverage responsibilities for each player. All of that is thinking stuff. I wanted to rep the tackling/aggression enough that they didn’t need to think about that. I just don’t think kids can think about where there head is at all times. Get them to hit with their shoulder and with force, and I figure I am 90% of the way there.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 13, 2019, 10:05:10 PM
I figure that have all kids attacking the ball carrier with first guy going near shoulder to near thigh with head behind is easy.

Eric, I don't think it's about whether it's easy, or not.  Or whether defenders are "having to think," or not.  For me, it's about biggest bang for the buck.  That's what I'm going to teach.  I'm going to teach "the main thing" as "the main thing."  We can tackle successfully without teaching "near shoulder to near thigh."  If we couldn't teach tackling successfully without it, then "near to near" would be a mandatory teach for me.  In whatever fundamental I'm teaching, I spend the bulk of my time on the "single biggest teaching point."  Once I have it, I'm going on the the "2nd biggest teaching point."  If we can be successful without teaching certain aspects of fundamentals, we won't teach them.  We'll just focus on the "must haves."  And if I'm playing a game today, and teaching a player for the first time how to tackle, "near to near" would never be on the list for me.

We have a youth header now spending his time on linebackers clubbing and ripping.  The players don't understand the concept and execute it poorly.  I've never had a defense that I felt needed to know "clubbing and ripping" (even at the high school level).  And despite my lack of appreciation for the "club and rip," we've had very good defenses despite my shortsightedness in that regard.  As a matter of fact, when we had the number 1-ranked defense in the conference at my last high school, all of our concepts and fundamentals were from what I'd taught with my youngest youth teams.

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: Bob Goodman on August 14, 2019, 01:30:38 AM
The USA Football cert materials say that the aiming point on a head on tackle is "near pec". Sounds like a good way to break your neck.
I don't know about that, but it's much too high.  Like what, you're going to dance?
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: patriotsfatboy1 on August 14, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
Eric, I don't think it's about whether it's easy, or not.  Or whether defenders are "having to think," or not.  It's about biggest bang for the buck.  That's what I'm going to teach.  I'm going to teach "the main thing" as "the main thing."  We can tackle successfully without teaching "near shoulder to near thigh."  If we couldn't teach tackling successfully without it, then "near to near" would be a mandatory teach for me.  In whatever fundamental I'm teaching, I spend the bulk of my time on the "single biggest teaching point."  Once I have it, I'm going on the the "2nd biggest teaching point."  If we can be successful without teaching certain aspects of fundamentals, we won't teach them.  We'll just focus on the "must haves."  And if I'm playing a game today, and teaching a player for the first time how to tackle, "near to near" would never be on the list for me.

We have a youth header now spending his time on linebackers clubbing and ripping.  The players don't understand the concept and execute it poorly.  I've never had a defense that I felt needed to know "clubbing and ripping" (even at the high school level).  And despite my lack of appreciation for the "club and rip," we've had very good defenses despite my shortsightedness in that regard.  As a matter of fact, when we had the number 1-ranked defense in the conference at my last high school, all of our concepts and fundamentals were from what I'd taught with my youngest youth teams.

--Dave

So, what is #1 teaching item for you?
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 14, 2019, 10:30:52 AM
So, what is #1 teaching item for you?

For which fundamental?

—Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: patriotsfatboy1 on August 14, 2019, 01:36:26 PM
For which fundamental?

—Dave

For tackling.  If hitting with the shoulder is really far down on the list, what is at the top of the list with respect to how you teach tackling?
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 14, 2019, 01:56:25 PM
For tackling.  If hitting with the shoulder is really far down on the list, what is at the top of the list with respect to how you teach tackling?

We'll always start first with "fit" (and work backwards).  Fit is simply the most important aspect because "fit" is "contact" and that's what we're wanting to get players used to/comfortable with.  "Fit" is everything from hand positioning to stance in the "fit" to rising on the contact.  But we're careful to keep from getting too specific, at this point.  What we want is our players concentrating on fit and what it feels like/should feel like.  From there, we work backwards in our progression, most importantly focusing on speed.  Because the faster the attacker, the bigger the contact should be, IMO.  So before we've even broached "tackling," we've spent time on speed development/form running/foot work.  And that would be an "ear/pocket" technique, as well as foot-fire drills.  Without them, players run as if they have cement blocks on their ankles, so what difference does it make if they can tackle when A) they aren't fast enough to catch anyone, B) Their speed is so slow, we can't get the type of big hits in contact that we're looking for?  But I can count the number of coaches (high school & youth) who teach speed and form running on one hand.  Jack Gregory is a master and when I had the opportunity to learn from him, it revolutionized how good we were defensively.   We went from being a defense that was skilled in the use of hand tools, to being adept at using power tools, lathes and blow torches.  In addition, we avoid anything even remotely close to a breakdown/feet buzzing/or gather like the plague.

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 14, 2019, 02:01:03 PM
In our Executioner Drill, we used to start with a tackle dummy and a player before then transitioning to 2 players.  Now, we just start with 2 players.  The tackle dummy just slowed us down, although we should still use the dummy in Twin Cannons because we got a lot of mileage out of it.  USAF shows a lot of contact with shields/pads/dummies and some of which I could probably use in our backwards progression but never ahead of fit/drive/takedown.

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: patriotsfatboy1 on August 14, 2019, 03:51:59 PM
We'll always start first with "fit" (and work backwards).  Fit is simply the most important aspect because "fit" is "contact" and that's what we're wanting to get players used to/comfortable with.  "Fit" is everything from hand positioning to stance in the "fit" to rising on the contact.  But we're careful to keep from getting too specific, at this point.  What we want is our players concentrating on fit and what it feels like/should feel like.  From there, we work backwards in our progression, most importantly focusing on speed.  Because the faster the attacker, the bigger the contact should be, IMO.  So before we've even broached "tackling," we've spent time on speed development/form running/foot work.  And that would be an "ear/pocket" technique, as well as foot-fire drills.  Without them, players run as if they have cement blocks on their ankles, so what difference does it make if they can tackle when A) they aren't fast enough to catch anyone, B) Their speed is so slow, we can't get the type of big hits in contact that we're looking for?  But I can count the number of coaches (high school & youth) who teach speed and form running on one hand.  Jack Gregory is a master and when I had the opportunity to learn from him, it revolutionized how good we were defensively.   We went from being a defense that was skilled in the use of hand tools, to being adept at using power tools, lathes and blow torches.  In addition, we avoid anything even remotely close to a breakdown/feet buzzing/or gather like the plague.

--Dave

Got it.  I have seen you do that in action. 

In my mind, we are talking about the same thing.  We start from fit as well, but that fit is a shoulder into the near thigh with the wrap.  From there, we work backwards and add speed. 
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 14, 2019, 04:27:22 PM
We start from fit as well, but that fit is a shoulder into the near thigh with the wrap.  From there, we work backwards and add speed.

But why it works for you is that you know that's what's important to you.  If it weren't important to you, and you were just teaching "by the book" because "that's what USAF said to do," it would be a waste.  That's one of your "main things."  As a result, you can be good at it.

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 14, 2019, 04:34:36 PM
We start from fit as well, but that fit is a shoulder into the near thigh with the wrap.

Ohhhh....well that's a great way to incorporate it!  That way, it's not an additional teach, but one you started out with at the introduction.  That's excellent, Eric.

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachQ on August 14, 2019, 04:39:52 PM
Shout out to Dave for the talk today!  I appreciate the help over the years brother!
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 14, 2019, 04:51:30 PM
Shout out to Dave for the talk today!  I appreciate the help over the years brother!

Quincy, it's always good to spend time with you.  Good football discussions with a good friend!

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: patriotsfatboy1 on August 14, 2019, 08:36:41 PM
But why it works for you is that you know that's what's important to you.  If it weren't important to you, and you were just teaching "by the book" because "that's what USAF said to do," it would be a waste.  That's one of your "main things."  As a result, you can be good at it.

--Dave

Now I get what you are saying. There was someone wise who taught me a while back to know “why” we teach something a certain way. If you don’t know why, then you should rethink it.

When I started, “heads up” was the big thing. Tried it for about 2 weeks before I realized it stunk. Smaller kids getting trucked and that “buzzing” is useless. That is when I got into rugby style tackling.

I never taught the heavy roll stuff and some of the “drive for 5” with higher points of contact didn’t work. So, that is where I wanted it simple - near shoulder to near thigh and that is what we repped and said every day. It started at fit and went into every tackling drill. That was what was important.

Don’t know if it is as good as it could be, which is why I keep asking questions and trying to learn.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 14, 2019, 10:04:15 PM
There was someone wise who taught me a while back to know “why” we teach something a certain way. If you don’t know why, then you should rethink it.

--Well I dunno how wise I am, but it's always been a personal maxim.  I was never going to drill, teach or install something that I didn't understand.  And if I did install it, it was because I knew why I was doing this.

When I started, “heads up” was the big thing. Tried it for about 2 weeks before I realized it stunk. Smaller kids getting trucked and that “buzzing” is useless.

--I agree.  But don't let USAF know that.  They are the governing body.  ;)

So, that is where I wanted it simple - near shoulder to near thigh and that is what we repped and said every day. It started at fit and went into every tackling drill. That was what was important.

--Good stuff.

Don’t know if it is as good as it could be, which is why I keep asking questions and trying to learn.

--You and me both.

--Dave

Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: Seabass on August 15, 2019, 12:59:25 AM
My experiance has been same/same.

Wheres your head?  Answer back hip.

If hes comming from straight ahead? Answer, pick a side and "cut" him side ways. * we only attack half a man, so its "hawk tackle" with out that silly roll.

https://youtu.be/_TcTFqlVQLk

It ends up looking like half a tackle and half a bronco mount.

It’s not any more complicated than that.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: Coach TonyM on August 15, 2019, 04:52:19 AM
Shout out to Dave for the talk today!  I appreciate the help over the years brother!

Dang Quincy,

I have to echo that.  I called Dave right at 5 for some help and as always he was right there..
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 15, 2019, 06:24:38 AM
Dang Quincy,

I have to echo that.  I called Dave right at 5 for some help and as always he was right there.

Tony, the funny thing is you both called me about the same thing.  Glad we were able to chat!  It had been a while.

—Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachQ on August 15, 2019, 07:19:16 AM
Dang Quincy,

I have to echo that.  I called Dave right at 5 for some help and as always he was right there..
How’s it going Tony?  I will call you to catch up soon!
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 16, 2019, 05:35:20 PM
Here's a post I copied/pasted from a coach on the Huey board re: USAF.  What he says is pretty interesting and accurate.

--Dave

"We have to take NFHS courses to coach in our state (NC), and one of those courses this year was the USA football contact system (Tip of the Spear / Bridge and Pillar). I like the Hawk tackle stuff (the original video that is) and thought that the Pillar stuff seemed interesting enough. Since the video advertises you get 3 free system if you go make an account, I went over and checked it out.

It says to start with the "Coil" video set since it's the foundation. Fair enough. I turn on the first video and it's a 2 minute video about the athletic stance. Ok. I skip ahead a couple of videos down to a drill video... and it's a minute and a half of how to run with a tennis ball between your hands + buy a piece of equipment to do it. Ok, not going to do it, but no biggie. It's for all levels, so I figure I'll move on to the next section which hopefully is a little more advanced. I move to the next section (Uncoil) and watch a little video about how to move your hips, again... ok sure pretty basic but again, it's for all levels. I go find something about the actual pillar technique, but that was it. That's the entire trial. What a waste of time. To subscribe to this would be $100.


If their mission was really "to make a better, safer game" shouldn't this stuff be free? What an absolute load of crap that my state makes me watch what amounted to a commercial for them under the guise of safety. I already was skeptical since they've tried to re-brand tackling at-least 3 times in the last few years (From Heads-Up, to Hawk Tackling to "5 Fights"). I thought it'd be worth spending 30 minutes learning a new technique. Nope. Another scam from an organization who is trying to promote safety."


Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 16, 2019, 05:38:07 PM
How’s it going Tony?  I will call you to catch up soon!

Q, Tony called again today and we spoke about pursuit.  Danged if you two aren't channeling each other through me.  lol.  Good Stuff!

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachQ on August 16, 2019, 06:13:05 PM
Q, Tony called again today and we spoke about pursuit.  Danged if you two aren't channeling each other through me.  lol.  Good Stuff!

--Dave
😂😂😂
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: Coach TonyM on August 16, 2019, 08:35:42 PM
Q, Tony called again today and we spoke about pursuit.  Danged if you two aren't channeling each other through me.  lol.  Good Stuff!

--Dave
We are smart enough to know what we don't know and the best place to get it..   

Too funny though.  Quincy and I haven't spoken in a couple of months.. gonna remedy that this weekend.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: CoachDP on August 16, 2019, 11:28:02 PM
We are smart enough to know what we don't know and the best place to get it.

Well I dunno if it's the best place, but if it helped...

Great talking with you again today.

--Dave
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: gumby_in_co on August 17, 2019, 02:38:31 AM
Here's a post I copied/pasted from a coach on the Huey board re: USAF.  What he says is pretty interesting and accurate.

--Dave

"We have to take NFHS courses to coach in our state (NC), and one of those courses this year was the USA football contact system (Tip of the Spear / Bridge and Pillar). I like the Hawk tackle stuff (the original video that is) and thought that the Pillar stuff seemed interesting enough. Since the video advertises you get 3 free system if you go make an account, I went over and checked it out.

It says to start with the "Coil" video set since it's the foundation. Fair enough. I turn on the first video and it's a 2 minute video about the athletic stance. Ok. I skip ahead a couple of videos down to a drill video... and it's a minute and a half of how to run with a tennis ball between your hands + buy a piece of equipment to do it. Ok, not going to do it, but no biggie. It's for all levels, so I figure I'll move on to the next section which hopefully is a little more advanced. I move to the next section (Uncoil) and watch a little video about how to move your hips, again... ok sure pretty basic but again, it's for all levels. I go find something about the actual pillar technique, but that was it. That's the entire trial. What a waste of time. To subscribe to this would be $100.


If their mission was really "to make a better, safer game" shouldn't this stuff be free? What an absolute load of crap that my state makes me watch what amounted to a commercial for them under the guise of safety. I already was skeptical since they've tried to re-brand tackling at-least 3 times in the last few years (From Heads-Up, to Hawk Tackling to "5 Fights"). I thought it'd be worth spending 30 minutes learning a new technique. Nope. Another scam from an organization who is trying to promote safety."


I agree with most of that assessment. "Bridge" is the o-line technique. Using the hips to "go skeletal" in a hands block. Hips through elbows, through forearms, through wrists, through hands. I used it and it worked with 8th/9th graders.  I wasn't about to shell out $18 for a velcro band that keeps their elbows together, so I just taught "put your elbows in your belly button".

"Pillar" is the D-line technique and it is crap. Arms extended, palms out, thumbs pointing out at 10 and 2 on the clock. Jam palms into top of breast plate and deflect the blocker. I tried it against a 160lb tackle and almost broke my wrist. Utter garbage.

Whole package definitely not worth the $60 I spent.
Title: Re: Back to tackling
Post by: Vince148 on August 17, 2019, 05:29:29 PM
We start from fit as well, but that fit is a shoulder into the near thigh with the wrap.  From there, we work backwards and add speed.
We start out the Hawk Tackling same way. Start with the defender on a knee and fit into his thigh and wrap and drive.

With the near pec hit, we start from form fits and club and rip. Think it's from a Miami tackling circuit video on youtube.