Author Topic: SIMPLE GUN  (Read 22784 times)

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Offline Coach_O

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #60 on: December 23, 2014, 06:24:14 PM »
One of the biggest disadvantages in using the GUN is 'less misdirection' ... main reason I went DW instead of SW many many years ago ... I know the SW guys have misdirection but it is just NOT the same game of 3 card monte without using the 'spinner' series and that footwork is much tougher with young kids ...

However, I have found that in the DW Circle, I probably use less misdirection than just about anybody except Markham himself and maybe even less than him ... we rarely run Counter ... sometimes 1 or 2 per game ... we rely on overpowering with our superior technique and superior blocking schemes and our extraordinary good looks ... 8-)

Seriously though as we have run less and less misdirection we have also noticed that we seem to get more yards from our POWER play from the I and the Gun because we are running downhill with less congestion ... this and the advantages I listed in the last post are the driving forces in our move to the GUN ...



Murphys team runs this nice trap play and a weakside power play where he motions the wing fakes to the wing and gives to the left wing that is next to the qb. It is so deceptive and wild looking. That to me was even more deceptive that what I was use to seeing in the dw. I also like the fake sweep toss and the qb keeps it and runs power. Its enough to freeze the defense. There is a lot of pros to the gun. However, I prfer pistol depth of 3 yards with a fast low snap.

Offline CoachJJ

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2014, 10:08:55 PM »


Murphys team runs this nice trap play and a weakside power play where he motions the wing fakes to the wing and gives to the left wing that is next to the qb. It is so deceptive and wild looking. That to me was even more deceptive that what I was use to seeing in the dw. I also like the fake sweep toss and the qb keeps it and runs power. Its enough to freeze the defense. There is a lot of pros to the gun. However, I prfer pistol depth of 3 yards with a fast low snap.

We actually ran POWER and BLAST with a couple different 'sweep fakes' ... Very, very, very cool stuff but not even close to the kitten and string effect we get under center when we run the traditional XX-COUNTER ...

I do like Murphs playbook though ... Freaking Great Stuff !!!
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Offline Coach_O

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2014, 01:32:33 AM »
I ran the criss cRoss out of shot gun. It's a snap to the qb, he hands off to the left wing that is in shotgun depth. Attacts power and gives the ball to.the wing. Inside for counter criss cRoss, outside hand off to wing for outide reverse. Works just as sweet.

Offline CoachJJ

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2014, 02:12:54 AM »
We ran it as well ... not the same my friend ... I think it might be a depth issue ... a little easier to see everyone involved ... or because the QB/WB exchange is in front as opposed to a spin ... or maybe teams were just better at defending us ... lol ... but so far its not quite as good ...

BUT ...

Please dont misunderstand ... I am still convinced I want to change full time because of the other benefits ... plus I am not as much of a misdirection guy ... I know some DW guys who run Counter as much or nearly as much as Power ... that is just not my nature ... we run Counter to score ... for me that is the purpose of the play ...
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2014, 08:57:39 AM »
I'll raise my hand and say I run counter more than JJ, and I think it's a primary reason I prefer being under center.  I have had coaches tell me they can't find the ball when we're under center.  That doesn't happen in gun unless we shorten the snap a bit to get the back more hidden and spin a la SW, and I don't want to do that at this point.

Let  me rephrase my first sentence - in a season I don't run a ton of counter either, but in a tough game it becomes a core play for us, so I think we NEED counter more than JJ.  We only play a couple of tough games a year, so I'll go full games without a single counter.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 08:59:26 AM by jrk5150 »

Offline Tripwire

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2014, 04:36:03 PM »
I ran a bucket load of Counter XX this year.  Loved it.  It was basically just power with another handoff.
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2014, 05:32:59 PM »
One of the biggest disadvantages in using the GUN is 'less misdirection' ... main reason I went DW instead of SW many many years ago ... I know the SW guys have misdirection but it is just NOT the same game of 3 card monte without using the 'spinner' series and that footwork is much tougher with young kids
That's surprising to me.  I believe you because you've done both, but I'd've guessed the footwork of toss-belly-counter-keep to be as hard as that of the fullback full spin series, even with the SW FB needing to step into the snap.  Maybe that part is what makes it harder, or maybe it's the 3-player mesh when both backs go behind the FB.

But you're probably sacrificing misdirection by having FB far in front of QB, rather than having them side by side or nearly so.  Just having 2 backs nearly side by side, as in usual SW formations, gives you some deception as long as you have plays where the extended lines of their attack cross each other.

Offline dan82564

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2014, 07:24:37 PM »

I do like Murphs playbook though ... Freaking Great Stuff !!!

I saw a few of Murphs clips on youtube. He calls it SG DW but isn't it basically SW?

Offline Dimson

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2014, 07:44:56 PM »
I saw a few of Murphs clips on youtube. He calls it SG DW but isn't it basically SW?
No, not at all. If anything it is a non spread, spread.

Offline CoachJJ

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2014, 12:50:20 PM »
I saw a few of Murphs clips on youtube. He calls it SG DW but isn't it basically SW?

I think it is exactly as he says it is ... only he isnt using motion to get the backside WB in position ... he just puts him there from jump ... the plays are DOUBLE WING ... undeniably ... unmistakably ... and the offense is the plays much more than the formation ... I know guys who run more I formation with their DW plays ... that doesnt change what they are running ...

For me the true SW is usually unbalanced ... has the backs staggered from the BB to FB to TB ... they usually pull only one guy (strongside Guard) ... they can snap to THREE different backs ... they run a straight power series (very similar to DW) and often a spinner series ...

Do they dabble in other things ... of course ... do they go against the unbalanced rule ... sure ... do they run other plays ... yes yes yes ... but at some point you have to define the SW and I prefer to think it is defined by what it does different from everyone else ... in its base form ...

Like DW in its base form is defined by pulling 2 from the backside ... zero splits ... power off tackle all day ... sniffer FB ... and 2 wings ... now someone will change 1 or 2 things and still run DW but it needs to be noted that it is a little different (something SW guys dont do as often ... they just keep calling it SW) ...

In this case Murphy notates that he is in the shotgun ... he actually titles his playbook THE NO HUDDLE SHOTGUN WING and says he is including additional Double Wing, Pistol and Wildcat Formations ...

But when you read the playbook and look at the plays ... it is unmistakable that he is running the Double Wing ... just using some different formations ... 8-)

Now if you ask has he morphed into something that is similar to the SW ... my answer would be no not by my definition of a true SW ... but he has definitely met them halfway ... 8-)

« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 12:54:37 PM by CoachJJ »
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Offline dan82564

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2014, 06:58:08 PM »
JJ, good points. I have seen some balanced SW formations, they usually still only pull the G but the alignment of the backs looked very similar to the clip I saw on youtube.

Granted I only saw a snapshot of Tim's playbook. I'm still undecided if Im going to purchase it or not.

I ran a lot out of SG with balanced line in our championship game it seemed to hit faster and less mistakes. (we struggled all year with center exchange and QB toss accuracy).

Offline Coach_O

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2014, 07:39:29 PM »
The true sw is a direct snap and go offense. The only time its hand off is on reverse to wing or the spinner plays. Murph is snapping to qb and he is handing off or tossing 95% of the time. Its rare when the qb actually takes off with the ball.

Offline CoachJJ

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2014, 10:38:04 PM »
The true sw is a direct snap and go offense. The only time its hand off is on reverse to wing or the spinner plays. Murph is snapping to qb and he is handing off or tossing 95% of the time. Its rare when the qb actually takes off with the ball.

This year yes but last year his QB actually ran quite a bit ... Of course it helped that his QB was bigger than his linemen and ran like Tim Tebow ... lol

He knows how to run the guy who gives him the best chance to win !!!
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Offline cbrm

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2014, 01:00:07 PM »
... but he has definitely met them halfway ... 8-)

I watched Murphy's championship game, and I could have sworn I saw his QB use some spinner action a few times.  Blocking... definitely Murphy's DW schemes.  That fumble was a tough break.

It always cracks me up how many people I work with believe SW and DW are only formations.  ;D
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: SIMPLE GUN
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2014, 02:07:41 PM »
It always cracks me up how many people I work with believe SW and DW are only formations.  ;D
What kind of work do you do with them?  It's possible to have some people referring to the formation and others referring to a system of offense from that formation.  In the case of "single wing", it gets applied to a lot of offense that isn't even from that formation, and, as I'm learning, the same seems to go for "double wing".