Author Topic: Question about clock after penalty  (Read 4431 times)

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Offline coachmyles

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2016, 01:49:10 PM »
Even if you just did it once or twice to ice the clock, seems like a massive loophole.

Been like 3 years since I played a close game & had to worry about a last second play or drive, so apparently I'm a little out of touch w/ this. lol

You can do it on offense and claim mistake. Should probably snap the ball once or twice in between.
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Offline SingleWingGoombah

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2016, 04:01:11 PM »
Even if you just did it once or twice to ice the clock, seems like a massive loophole.

Been like 3 years since I played a close game & had to worry about a last second play or drive, so apparently I'm a little out of touch w/ this. lol

Only reason I am familiar with this rule is because I unknowingly took advantage of it one time.  That is how I learned about it.  Took a false start on 3rd down, when I need a first down to get to take a knee.  Opponent would have had like 15 seconds,  If I turned the ball over on downs, but ran the play clock down on 3rd down, and had a false start.  Ball was re-spotted, and they wound the clock again, I was able to take it down again which allowed me to run the time out after that play. 

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2016, 06:45:18 PM »
Only reason I am familiar with this rule is because I unknowingly took advantage of it one time.  That is how I learned about it.  Took a false start on 3rd down, when I need a first down to get to take a knee.  Opponent would have had like 15 seconds,  If I turned the ball over on downs, but ran the play clock down on 3rd down, and had a false start.  Ball was re-spotted, and they wound the clock again, I was able to take it down again which allowed me to run the time out after that play.

Gotcha. Ya, I honestly cant remember the last time I was in a game like this. Next year I will be, so good to know!
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2016, 08:19:09 PM »
Yeah, my understanding is it reverts back to clock status based on previous completed down.  If clock was running for the play you had a penalty, then it would run once the ball was ready for play.
Seems a common misunderstanding.  I had it, you had it, someone else in the thread did...but I was just informed at forum.officiating.com that that is indeed a common misconception even many officials have; it doesn't matter how the previous down ended, only the down in which there was a foul or inadvertent whistle for which options are given.  So even though they say they're replaying the down, the clock status doesn't stay the same as it was before "the down" that they're supposedly "replaying".

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2016, 08:21:13 PM »
That doesn't sound right. Otherwise D could just commit a off sides every play & run the clock out. Bob, rule book please?
Each of the major codes has a timing rules provision to prevent such an abuse.  In Fed at least, it's a judgment call as to whether it's done deliberately.

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2016, 08:29:49 PM »
Each of the major codes has a timing rules provision to prevent such an abuse.  In Fed at least, it's a judgment call as to whether it's done deliberately.

In other words, still a massive loophole. Good luck judging intent.
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2016, 08:53:32 PM »
In other words, still a massive loophole. Good luck judging intent.
An example was given above of its being done unintentionally (i.e. not an "attempt"), so it does happen, but my suspicion is that most referees if they think it's to the clear advantage of the team committing the foul late in a period will order the clock stopped until the snap.

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2016, 10:05:36 PM »
An example was given above of its being done unintentionally (i.e. not an "attempt"), so it does happen, but my suspicion is that most referees if they think it's to the clear advantage of the team committing the foul late in a period will order the clock stopped until the snap.

Shouldn't be a judgement call. That's just dumb. D penalty should stop the clock, at least in the past 2 minutes.
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Offline patriotsfatboy1

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2016, 10:47:50 PM »
Shouldn't be a judgement call. That's just dumb. D penalty should stop the clock, at least in the past 2 minutes.

4th and 10.  Offense is up. 30 seconds left.  Defense has a substitution penalty.  Not enough for a first down.  So, clock should be stopped?

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2016, 12:25:37 AM »
4th and 10.  Offense is up. 30 seconds left.  Defense has a substitution penalty.  Not enough for a first down.  So, clock should be stopped?

Hmmm. Good point. Guess it would only be enforced when offense is losing.

i guess it's a tricky one, but the rule as it stands seems very flawed. "The refs might or might not stop it" just seems super loosey goosey & just begging for abuse.
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2016, 10:44:15 AM »
Hmmm. Good point. Guess it would only be enforced when offense is losing.

i guess it's a tricky one, but the rule as it stands seems very flawed. "The refs might or might not stop it" just seems super loosey goosey & just begging for abuse.
IMO the most equitable way would be for any replayed down to be an untimed one.  That comes closest to setting things back to the way they were for the down that "didn't count".

I'd make an exception for those delay-of-game situations (enforced as unsportsmanlike conduct in some codes) where a team tries to conserve time by, say, throwing away the ball to delay the officials' readying of it for play.  In those I might want a fixed time penalty, or to run the clock during the enforcement of the penalty.  (Like, you want to delay the readying of the ball for play when you want to save time on the game clock?  OK, we'll just run the clock during administration even though it's delayed.)  OTOH, if they wait until it's ready for play, get someone over the ball, & snap it to someone who spikes it, I've got no problem with the opposing team's having the option of accepting the result of the play (loss of down) or taking the illegal formation penalty & stopping the clock.  I figure if a team wants to waste a down, they deserve to benefit timewise.

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2016, 11:32:48 AM »

Scenario, down 14-13 we get the ball at our own 40 with 5 minutes remaining in the game. We drive to the 3 yard line and on 2nd down run the ball to the 1 foot line, on 3rd down we punch it in for the score with 30 seconds remaining but the official calls us for an illegal shift. After he marks off the 5 yards he restarts the clock.
Ok in this scenario when the play to the 1 was stopped the clock was running. On the score play it never happened due to the illegal shift so the clock was running on previous down so the clock starts back up. If it was running before penalty its running after.

Robert

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2016, 08:16:35 PM »
Ok in this scenario when the play to the 1 was stopped the clock was running. On the score play it never happened due to the illegal shift so the clock was running on previous down so the clock starts back up. If it was running before penalty its running after.
It coincidentally came out that way, but that's not the rule.

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2016, 07:34:04 AM »
It coincidentally came out that way, but that's not the rule.
So if we had thrown an incomplete pass and the clock stopped, then false started the clock would run?
Robert

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Question about clock after penalty
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2016, 12:13:18 PM »
So if we had thrown an incomplete pass and the clock stopped, then false started the clock would run?
No, because the false start's a dead ball foul.  The clock was already stopped.  If instead there were a live ball foul, the time would be treated according to how the ball became dead, even if the penalty that was enforced caused the down to be "replayed".  However, time would never resume before the ready-for-play, because the administration of the penalty options stops the clock.