Author Topic: DCWT BEAST  (Read 16892 times)

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Online CoachDP

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2017, 12:11:05 PM »
I have never understood this line of thought.

The wider the split, the more of an island an offensive lineman is on.  Against a quick defensive lineman, a slower offensive player may have no chance.  Want to create an automatic mismatch at the youth level?  Instead of hiding defensive players on the D-Line, take your Linebackers and put them on the LOS and "hide" your MPRs at Linebacker.  The mismatch between the youth-level Fat Freddies on the O-Line and your starting Linebacker-types on the D-Line will give the offense headaches.  They may not even be able to get off a snap, or hand off the ball.

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Offline Dimson

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2017, 12:13:53 PM »
The wider the split, the more of an island an offensive lineman is on.  Against a quick defensive lineman, a slower offensive player may have no chance.  Want to create an automatic mismatch at the youth level?  Instead of hiding defensive players on the D-Line, take your Linebackers and put them on the LOS and "hide" your MPRs at Linebacker.  The mismatch between the youth-level Fat Freddies on the O-Line and your starting Linebacker-types on the D-Line will give the offense headaches.  They may not even be able to get off a snap, or hand off the ball.

--Dave
I understand that but if you can't block, splits shouldn't matter.

Online CoachDP

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2017, 12:14:15 PM »
When you have small splits- the gaps are MUCH smaller
Your help is right next to you if and when you need it- much harder to get help from someone that is 6 feet away than 6 inches away

Fat Freddy has to play somewhere and for us- we are going to get some of our MPRs some snaps there as well. Here is someone splits out an MPR- we just dont bother covering him- we scout and have kids we literally wont bother covering at all.
MOST youth teams arent in a situation where they have an overabundance of athletes- The few athletes they do have are playing RB, QB, HB, maybe TE etc, NOT the oline
MOST youth teams have MPRs they also have to play
That doesnt mean we have 100% bad athletes on the OLine- but reality is we do need tough athletic kids to run the ball- block LBs in space and kickout good DEs- we use up some or most of our athletes at those spots.

Even if you arent getting help the distance between you and other players being blocked- other players is smaller
That means there is less room for the Defender to operate and create separation
Less space is easier for a less athletic player to operate- because it gives less room for an athletic defender to escape to/towards

The thing when I have very unathletic teams- teams that do not have a bunch of athletes and I cant count on getting many 20 yard explosive plays- One year when I took a down team we had just 5 plays I think that went over 20 yards- yet we ended up 7-3 I think

We were small and very slow

Why did we do so well?  because we never or rarely got behind the chains. We may have had 4-5 negative yardage plays all season
Because if we did get behind the chains we couldnt count on having any players that could break off a 10+ yard gain

Negative yards and penalties are the kill shot for most average to below teams

Ive always played by the mantra- space is my friend when I have speed, space is my enemy when I have no speed
When Ive had talented teams- we may be in our version of spread for 40% of our snaps- when I dont have speed- not so much

Also- when you have big splits- like I did my first 5-6 years of coaching- option football
Your RBs better be really good at reading the flow, making split second decisions and be able to change direction and explode- great body control
Because there are going to be defenders in the backfield- often
If you have slower or plodding straight ahead runners- slashers- forgetbaboutit

I dunno why I post anymore.  ^ This says it all.

--DP
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The Mission Statement:
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Online CoachDP

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2017, 12:14:52 PM »
I understand that but if you can't block, splits shouldn't matter.

Chris, if you can't block, then nothing matters....

--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

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Offline davecisar

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2017, 12:23:30 PM »
I understand that but if you can't block, splits shouldn't matter.

If a Dlineman has very small window to operate in via small splits- there is someone else being blocked nearly at his inside foot and outside foot- not much space for him to operate in
SIMPLE to crab block him- we do it all the time when we see mismatches
IN space- our crabbers would never even get there- or the D linemen could just run around it
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

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Offline davecisar

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2017, 12:51:47 PM »
I understand that but if you can't block, splits shouldn't matter.

They matter if you block well, average or poor

It has worked for Mike and Gumby- more power to them

I would be very interested in seeing who goes all in on very wide splits beast next year
WIth an average team- no super stud RB etc with MPR rules- where people scout

And see how many negative yardage plays and wins they get

Yeah- when weve traveled to play outstate, played non league teams or brought out state teams in- my personal teams have lost just 1 game in 19 seasons.
Teams have a tough time initially lining up against us- flipping etc- Its just an unbalanced line and we do some things they dont see a lot of
But when we play in league in the Top Division against select teams with better athletes that know what we do inside and out- it gets a little harder- BTW we rarely if ever flip in league- it gets us nothing- against outside comp= yep

My motto is - the results either validate or they dont
More power to you if it consistently works for you
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 12:53:18 PM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2017, 01:14:20 PM »
I would be very interested in seeing who goes all in on very wide splits beast next year
WIth an average team- no super stud RB etc with MPR rules- where people scout


Not looking for an argument, but I'll redirect a little.

We don't have super stud RBs. We have some kids who learned how to play within our system. It wasn't over night. Point being, Nearly every team we played had a RB, QB or WR who was better than anyone we had. Our RBs were routinely caught from behind on big plays.

Big factors were the o-line. Best line I've ever coached or faced. Another was that we had a lot of athletes who could hurt you. Call them studs if you want, but in my eye, they were just good enough to run a route where you tried to hide a weak corner or safety and catch a pass. Or, they were just good enough to run the ball to a pre-snap bubble and hurt you. We definitely had depth at the "skill" positions.

We do have a MPR rule and we had 25 players. At the end of the season, there was only one kid we had to "hide". We went the entire regular season believing our MPR rule was 15. Then, the player we had to "hide" decided to go trick or treating instead of practicing, so we reviewed the MPR rule and learned it was only 10. I wanted to cut this kid's plays to 5 for missing practice, which was 100% within our rules. Mahonz and the HC overruled me and the kid got more than 10 plays.

The scouting thing? We've beaten that to death. Some teams obviously scouted us and gave us a fight early on. Some either didn't or didn't know what to do with their intel. A telling sign was how the defense reacted when we shifted in and out of beast or flipped. I remember 2 teams being well prepared for that.

For us, going heavy live in team helped a ton in the long run. The result was some very educated linemen. Not that you've followed my posts, but I am usually, if not always cautious about encouraging anyone to go mega wide, especially those who want to "try" it.  This is complicated by the fact that there aren't any materials that I know of to support it. I watched this nonsense from the other side of the ball for 2 seasons, then coached the QBs/RBs/receivers for a 3rd before I stepped in and said, "I think I can improve this."

You make good points though. Very curious to see how this works with our new rookie group. In the Spring, we typically plug in 2, maybe 3 players from other teams, but they are on par with our Fall linemen as far as agility and smarts.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #97 on: November 30, 2017, 01:38:06 PM »
Not looking for an argument, but I'll redirect a little.

We don't have super stud RBs. We have some kids who learned how to play within our system. It wasn't over night. Point being, Nearly every team we played had a RB, QB or WR who was better than anyone we had. Our RBs were routinely caught from behind on big plays.

Big factors were the o-line. Best line I've ever coached or faced. Another was that we had a lot of athletes who could hurt you. Call them studs if you want, but in my eye, they were just good enough to run a route where you tried to hide a weak corner or safety and catch a pass. Or, they were just good enough to run the ball to a pre-snap bubble and hurt you. We definitely had depth at the "skill" positions.

We do have a MPR rule and we had 25 players. At the end of the season, there was only one kid we had to "hide". We went the entire regular season believing our MPR rule was 15. Then, the player we had to "hide" decided to go trick or treating instead of practicing, so we reviewed the MPR rule and learned it was only 10. I wanted to cut this kid's plays to 5 for missing practice, which was 100% within our rules. Mahonz and the HC overruled me and the kid got more than 10 plays.

The scouting thing? We've beaten that to death. Some teams obviously scouted us and gave us a fight early on. Some either didn't or didn't know what to do with their intel. A telling sign was how the defense reacted when we shifted in and out of beast or flipped. I remember 2 teams being well prepared for that.

For us, going heavy live in team helped a ton in the long run. The result was some very educated linemen. Not that you've followed my posts, but I am usually, if not always cautious about encouraging anyone to go mega wide, especially those who want to "try" it.  This is complicated by the fact that there aren't any materials that I know of to support it. I watched this nonsense from the other side of the ball for 2 seasons, then coached the QBs/RBs/receivers for a 3rd before I stepped in and said, "I think I can improve this."

You make good points though. Very curious to see how this works with our new rookie group. In the Spring, we typically plug in 2, maybe 3 players from other teams, but they are on par with our Fall linemen as far as agility and smarts.

Imagine what we could have done over the years with that RB from LW. Sheesh.

I also think its important to note that mega splits RB's have to be Zone type RB's. Some kids run well in a Zone scheme while others do not.  Look at a kid like Apple or Ebbs. We tried to turn them into a RB's but they just never really saw the forest thru the trees. This year Ean busted out as a VERY good RB after 2 years of wanting nothing to do with the Offense.  X was pretty useless in the early days carrying the Rock and is now quite spectacular while Jayden is Jayden. Even Neon does well but it didnt start out that way. I remember his first game at RB. I think he ran into every single one of his team mates at least twice.  :)

Its a progression. I dont think any one type of back is better than another per say as long as they protect that football and gain yards. Look at Kane. Not fast but really smart and ends up starting as a RB on every team he has played for. Or Maes. He wont wow you with his speed but watching that kid play RB....WOW !

For me its like my mogal bashing daze. Can you pick a line and survive or not. All about vision and reflex.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #98 on: November 30, 2017, 01:54:31 PM »
Well, there's no way to know, so to even discuss it is foolhardy.  Your approach to Mojo is much the same as mine: we both place a priority on it.  (Much to the consternation of many others who think it shouldn't or can't be taught.)  And regardless of who goes down swinging, I'm sure there'd be no quit in either team.  It's the single most challenging aspect of our philosophy that I've found difficult to replicate at the high school level.  I know we're tough and physical in high school and the way we execute Mojo at the high school level gives us an edge.  But at the youth level, it wasn't merely an edge, it was the dominant factor for game outcomes.  Other teams (coaches, actually) hated us for it and complained about it.  At my previous high school, they didn't think it was neccessary but the fact that our opponents had (almost) twice as many turnovers (31 to our 16) as we did, was proof enough to me.  At my present high school, we're able to teach it with no issues or controversy.  We won't out-athlete anyone, but we can still be the nastiest players on the field.  The difference is that the physicality gap is smaller in high school than in youth ball.

--Dave

Reading this brings a smile to my face. The journey.

I am starting the process all over again next season with the Super Smurfs....kids crying because their helmet is too tight...the bee stings...Moms freaking out over tears....kids avoiding contact....

Whew....Im exhausted just thinking about it. Im thinking our first drill in pads is going be Gauntlet Potter style.  :)

Yah...I know...who needs pads but I dont want people thinking we full on nuts....yet.
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline davecisar

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #99 on: November 30, 2017, 02:05:14 PM »
Not looking for an argument, but I'll redirect a little.

We don't have super stud RBs. We have some kids who learned how to play within our system. It wasn't over night. Point being, Nearly every team we played had a RB, QB or WR who was better than anyone we had. Our RBs were routinely caught from behind on big plays.

Big factors were the o-line. Best line I've ever coached or faced. Another was that we had a lot of athletes who could hurt you. Call them studs if you want, but in my eye, they were just good enough to run a route where you tried to hide a weak corner or safety and catch a pass. Or, they were just good enough to run the ball to a pre-snap bubble and hurt you. We definitely had depth at the "skill" positions.

We do have a MPR rule and we had 25 players. At the end of the season, there was only one kid we had to "hide". We went the entire regular season believing our MPR rule was 15. Then, the player we had to "hide" decided to go trick or treating instead of practicing, so we reviewed the MPR rule and learned it was only 10. I wanted to cut this kid's plays to 5 for missing practice, which was 100% within our rules. Mahonz and the HC overruled me and the kid got more than 10 plays.

The scouting thing? We've beaten that to death. Some teams obviously scouted us and gave us a fight early on. Some either didn't or didn't know what to do with their intel. A telling sign was how the defense reacted when we shifted in and out of beast or flipped. I remember 2 teams being well prepared for that.

For us, going heavy live in team helped a ton in the long run. The result was some very educated linemen. Not that you've followed my posts, but I am usually, if not always cautious about encouraging anyone to go mega wide, especially those who want to "try" it.  This is complicated by the fact that there aren't any materials that I know of to support it. I watched this nonsense from the other side of the ball for 2 seasons, then coached the QBs/RBs/receivers for a 3rd before I stepped in and said, "I think I can improve this."

You make good points though. Very curious to see how this works with our new rookie group. In the Spring, we typically plug in 2, maybe 3 players from other teams, but they are on par with our Fall linemen as far as agility and smarts.

Maybe I missed something- I thought you guys were really hyping your Beast Back a bunch

From the snippets of film I saw- looked like you had plenty of TDs where your RB outran everyone or was the best player on the field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGrfvheoR8&feature=youtu.be

You also talked about drives of 1,8,2,1, then 30 or 40 yd TDS

Tough to do that if you dont have an elite back with very good speeed

Hats off-

Ive just heard Joe talk about not being able to run Zone some years because he didnt have a zone back- they would run more power
If you dont have that kid or kids who can make those decisions- able to accelerate AND not get overmatched on the Oline- sure

Will be interesting to see how those with true MPRs, average kids with teams that consistently scout do. Not all of us get to try kids out in the spring before we decide to take them on or not  ;D
The results are the results

I can see more negative yardage plays- fewer big plays with average teams
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline michealmyers

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2017, 02:05:47 PM »
Reading this brings a smile to my face. The journey.

I am starting the process all over again next season with the Super Smurfs....kids crying because their helmet is too tight...the bee stings...Moms freaking out over tears....kids avoiding contact....

Whew....Im exhausted just thinking about it. Im thinking our first drill in pads is going be Gauntlet Potter style.  :)

Yah...I know...who needs pads but I dont want people thinking we full on nuts....yet.


What age group next season, 8's?

Offline mahonz

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2017, 02:25:57 PM »
The wider the split, the more of an island an offensive lineman is on.  Against a quick defensive lineman, a slower offensive player may have no chance.  Want to create an automatic mismatch at the youth level?  Instead of hiding defensive players on the D-Line, take your Linebackers and put them on the LOS and "hide" your MPRs at Linebacker.  The mismatch between the youth-level Fat Freddies on the O-Line and your starting Linebacker-types on the D-Line will give the offense headaches.  They may not even be able to get off a snap, or hand off the ball.

--Dave

Pretty much what happened in our first ever game using these splits. Add to that we used a rhythmic cadence so the D could time things up much better. These were 10 year olds.

We only had 11 players and 7 of them were linemen types so we were limited.

So we did away with the rhythmic cadence and went on first sound. This has proven to be the key. Eventually as the kids got older we could protect the QB using 3-4 foot A gaps with the QB under center no matter what the Defense did.

Anyway....that first season we went to smart splits. The slower linemen compressed while the more athletic linemen pushed their own boundaries. That worked well.

We still only won 2 games that season but it wasn't an Offense issue. With 11 players and 7 linemen types we simply could not play Defense. Linemen playing OLB is pretty hilarious. So we were losing games 40-32 and 45-35. We could score but gave up a TON of points.

From there were learned how to place big and slow on the OL and then train them how to play as big and slow. One of our best OLM is big and he is slow. Just had to train his brain to overcome. Fortunately he has always been rather tall so that helped.

Being a pass first coach all these years taught me that if you are going to take a contrarian route then you better have a solid plan. That philosophy has paid of in spades going to these splits.

For example. The only formation I would ever use with these mega splits that does not employ a TE and or an H Back / FB is 5 wide empty. The reason being that by formation overloads vs the OL are rare but do happen. So when that happens you better have a plan.

All other formations using mega splits must have a TE and or an H Back / FB in order to complete the deal for the blocking so that we have a plan when we face intelligent coaches like yourself.

At the end of the day this is why I believe the Beast with mega splits works so incredibly well. You have a TE AND 3 FB's.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:25:21 PM by mahonz »
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Offline mahonz

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2017, 02:31:00 PM »
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2017, 02:36:39 PM »
Maybe I missed something- I thought you guys were really hyping your Beast Back a bunch

From the snippets of film I saw- looked like you had plenty of TDs where your RB outran everyone or was the best player on the field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGrfvheoR8&feature=youtu.be

You also talked about drives of 1,8,2,1, then 30 or 40 yd TDS

Tough to do that if you dont have an elite back with very good speeed

Hats off-

Ive just heard Joe talk about not being able to run Zone some years because he didnt have a zone back- they would run more power
If you dont have that kid or kids who can make those decisions- able to accelerate AND not get overmatched on the Oline- sure

Will be interesting to see how those with true MPRs, average kids with teams that consistently scout do. Not all of us get to try kids out in the spring before we decide to take them on or not  ;D
The results are the results

I can see more negative yardage plays- fewer big plays with average teams

That wasn't our beast back. He's our Z and typically doesn't get that many carries. He really took advantage of his touches in the championship. You did notice that he got caught though, right? On the 2nd play, the other team had given up. The other team's best back was better than any of ours.

Those long TDs happen when the other team's fastest kids blitz and miss. We had 2 elite athletes on our team and they maybe got 5 carries per game. The work horses are elite football players, but not elite athletes. We had way above average team speed, but didn't have the fastest in the league.

The real test would have been last Fall. Offense sputtered quite a bit. What effect would GOL and simplified blocking had last year? Dunno.

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Offline michealmyers

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Re: DCWT BEAST
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2017, 02:46:51 PM »
7's

Good, I'm doing 7's also in my other age group.....what are you guys planning to run?