Author Topic: Wishbone and SAB?  (Read 2556 times)

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Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2018, 07:01:07 AM »
It does work on ISO as well.    Part the DL (2Butts to the Hole) and the FB or Other lead blocker takes on the LB you are Isolating.   :)
How are you opening the hole with SAB? The entire line is blocking towards the center. Again, SAB is a rule, not a scheme. I have never seen it used across the entire front in any iso type play.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2018, 07:59:32 AM »
How are you opening the hole with SAB? The entire line is blocking towards the center. Again, SAB is a rule, not a scheme. I have never seen it used across the entire front in any iso type play.

I said 2 butts to the hole. That has NOTHING to do with SAB.  :)
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Offline Vince148

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2018, 08:07:33 AM »
I run the " Easy Wishbone" I found the playbook on here a few years back. This is my first year back down coaching this age. It was simple enough to put in and so far been successful for us.
Yeah, I have that. Pretty simple.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2018, 08:24:03 AM »
I said 2 butts to the hole. That has NOTHING to do with SAB.  :)
You said "it works on iso" in a post that quoted me saying SAB doesn't work with iso. Hence my post. Just a misunderstanding.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2018, 10:08:04 AM »
How are you opening the hole with SAB? The entire line is blocking towards the center. Again, SAB is a rule, not a scheme. I have never seen it used across the entire front in any iso type play.

It's not something I'd hang my hat on, but I go back to my many conversations with JJ Lawson and TKO. It may have been Coach Fish who came up with it, or maybe it was Jack Gregory. Don't remember. TKO was a response to the chaos that ensues from each lineman running down his track. In this chaos, they noticed that lanes were opening up allowing 2nd level defenders through.

When I was beaten into submission to run wide splits, it dawned on me that chaos works both ways. I'm a believer that chaos belongs to the athletes. So it became a question of "are our backs more athletic than the other guy's linebackers?" We eventually figured out that even if the answer is "no", we can mitigate that by giving my back experience in chaos. We can further mitigate that by sending blockers to the 2nd level instead of running to the far sideline, which was kind of the idea of SAB. Isn't the basic idea of ISO to block one LB with a Guard and leave the other one for the FB?

Tighter splits are tougher because the back doesn't have as much time to read the flow, nor does he have a clear view of what's going on. I still believe thought that a seam big enough for a LB is big enough for a back. So at face value, SAB as part of an ISO scheme is far from ideal and if it wasn't working, I wouldn't be surprised in the least. It was SAB principles that led me to trying GOL with the giant splits. Take the inside block that gives you the best angle. If a DL is head up on you, then don't plan on moving him. Just occupy him. If he's outside of you, find a LB.

But to your point, this involves a lot more planning and thought than "run wishbone with SAB".
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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2018, 10:20:14 AM »
But to your point, this involves a lot more planning and thought than "run wishbone with SAB".

Which is why that when something hasn't been done before (in terms of scheme), there's usually a reason for that.

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Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2018, 11:07:16 AM »
Gumby,
We are on the same page. We ran SAB back in 2010 with great success from the dw. The closest thing we had to iso was what Steve calls ice. Great play btw. Belly on steroids is about how he described it I believe. We did not use SAB on that. Simple g/t cross block.

I found the same issues with SAB as you describe. One of the resons we only pulled the guard was because we adjusted our blocking rules from a pure double to a combo or just chip and climb. We were nasty when we did that. The year we used SAB with one pull was not our most productive year as far as dw goes. It did work well for our sw stuff though. Go figure. Not that it was crap with the dw but we did see a minor drop in production. The nice thing is that a blown assignment is almost impossible.

I am beating a dead horse here but if SAB is used on iso/lead/belly the line will clog the hole instead of opening one. Inside the poa could do it depending on dline tech and I guess outside the poa could SAB away but that leaves any dlinemen between a 4 and 2 tech unblocked. Alright for trap maybe (if you are comfortable trapping a 2) but not iso.

Offline 32wedge

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2018, 11:34:07 AM »
SAB is a rule not a scheme. How would you run SAB with iso? It is like saying I run the dw and we use GOD blocking. Well sure, but what other rules do use within each play. Your whole oline is not going to SAB for iso.

Like this.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2018, 11:39:55 AM »
Like this.
ok but say you have a 2 and a 4. The backs pick them up in the hole, probably clogging it up. Then who has the backer?

Offline 32wedge

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2018, 11:50:27 AM »
ok but say you have a 2 and a 4. The backs pick them up in the hole, probably clogging it up. Then who has the backer?

If I have a 2 and 4, I wouldn't call blast no matter what rules/scheme I am running.  I would run off tackle against that.

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2018, 01:09:08 PM »
Like this.

Yep. We used to call that "part".
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2018, 01:10:56 PM »
I am beating a dead horse here but if SAB is used on iso/lead/belly the line will clog the hole instead of opening one.

Agree. If any holes do appear, you have no control over where. It's anyone's guess.
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Offline 32wedge

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2018, 01:14:17 PM »
Yep. We used to call that "part".

Exactly.  It's copied from Jack Gregory. 

Coach Moshe Imel in Maryland runs part all across the line.  His blocking back makes the hole call at the line where they part at.  He does great with it.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2018, 01:25:07 PM »
Exactly.  It's copied from Jack Gregory. 

Coach Moshe Imel in Maryland runs part all across the line.  His blocking back makes the hole call at the line where they part at.  He does great with it.

Ok, but the op is asking about sab for simplicities sake. Is calling out the poa at the line simpler then just putting in a cross blocking scheme? He runs hurry up so that makes hurry up not so hurry up. Plus, we are talking wishbone, not dw. Running an iso at a 2/4 is bad in the dw. Even cross blocking it. But with larger splits it certainly might not be the best call but it is certainly doable. You should be able to win with the angles a cross block provides. Especially with a good recess.

M6 whole original point is that a rule blocking scheme teach os not hard. Just don't run too many schemes. 5 or 6 for most teams is fine. More or less depending on other factors.

Offline 32wedge

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Re: Wishbone and SAB?
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2018, 02:46:10 PM »
Ok, but the op is asking about sab for simplicities sake. Is calling out the poa at the line simpler then just putting in a cross blocking scheme? He runs hurry up so that makes hurry up not so hurry up. Plus, we are talking wishbone, not dw. Running an iso at a 2/4 is bad in the dw. Even cross blocking it. But with larger splits it certainly might not be the best call but it is certainly doable. You should be able to win with the angles a cross block provides. Especially with a good recess.

M6 whole original point is that a rule blocking scheme teach os not hard. Just don't run too many schemes. 5 or 6 for most teams is fine. More or less depending on other factors.

The cross block certainly makes sense if you are intent on running iso/blast against all fronts.  I don't believe that it is necessarily an easier teach. 

Some coaches think SAB is an easy teach.  I have tried teaching it 4 different times.  Once as an offensive line coach and my HC was determined to run it.  We made it work but it wasn't easy.  Once as HC and it went together great and we stayed with it the whole season.  The other 2 times, I gave up on it and went back to rule blocking early in the season.  Getting the whole play side firing off with the same timing and at the same angle without anyone chasing defenders is not easy.  The concept may be simple but the execution takes a lot of work unless you get lucky with a group of linemen who just get it.

I didn't mean to jump in this thread to argue which way was better.  It just seemed that there was a general consensus that SAB wouldn't work with Wishbone. 

If I was going to run a full house, QB under center offense with SAB blocking, I would run the Michigan Dead T.  I know from experience that it works with 7/8 year olds.