Author Topic: 4-4 Split vs. DW  (Read 9944 times)

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Offline darin30

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4-4 Split vs. DW
« on: May 14, 2011, 10:57:14 PM »
We play a Double Wing team Week 1 and a few at team camps this summer. Do you have any auto checks on fronts or coverages vs Double Wing.  The team does base block on playside on most of it base run plays. Any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated.


Offline JrTitan

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 08:27:02 AM »
We play a Double Wing team Week 1 and a few at team camps this summer. Do you have any auto checks on fronts or coverages vs Double Wing.  The team does base block on playside on most of it base run plays. Any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated.

See the discussion below:

http://www.dumcoach.com/classic/viewthread.php?tid=3964
"They call it coaching but it is teaching...You do not just tell them...you show them the reasons"

"You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important."

“…you have no bad habits to break...We either coach it or are allowing allowing it to happen.”

Offline JrTitan

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2011, 10:33:16 AM »
Here is a double wing defense that Bill Mountjoy shared with me.  The base is a 4-2-5/4-4 scheme.
"They call it coaching but it is teaching...You do not just tell them...you show them the reasons"

"You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important."

“…you have no bad habits to break...We either coach it or are allowing allowing it to happen.”

Offline Yankee Charlie

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2011, 06:34:06 PM »
Good stuff.  I think a simple Wing on adjustment causes all sorts of headaches.
"A boy comes to me with a spark of interest and it becomes a flame. I feed the flame and it becomes fire, I feed the fire and it becomes a roaring blaze" - Cus D'Amato, 1908-1985

Offline dbsesq

Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2011, 07:38:46 PM »
Good stuff.  I think a simple Wing on adjustment causes all sorts of headaches.

How?

Offline Yankee Charlie

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2011, 09:01:34 PM »
Well if I'm rules blocking I would get a Double on the PSDE and allow the fullback to kickout the crashing OLB.  We would hope that our DT drives the defender into Sams lap.  Leaving the PS safety and the CB to make the play.  2 defenders may make the play if they avoid blocks from the QB, Pulling G and pulling T.

I think the wing on call gets a double team on the end and a kickout on the crashing backer and the DW gets its 5 yards+ a carry.  Mike may get in on the play, but he too will be running the hump, helping us get 5 yards.
"A boy comes to me with a spark of interest and it becomes a flame. I feed the flame and it becomes fire, I feed the fire and it becomes a roaring blaze" - Cus D'Amato, 1908-1985

Offline dbsesq

Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2011, 10:43:11 PM »
Well if I'm rules blocking I would get a Double on the PSDE and allow the fullback to kickout the crashing OLB.  We would hope that our DT drives the defender into Sams lap.  Leaving the PS safety and the CB to make the play.  2 defenders may make the play if they avoid blocks from the QB, Pulling G and pulling T.

I think the wing on call gets a double team on the end and a kickout on the crashing backer and the DW gets its 5 yards+ a carry.  Mike may get in on the play, but he too will be running the hump, helping us get 5 yards.

There is no doubt that the DW can grind yards.  I think WO takes your Wing and doubles up on Sam (rules) who aligns on the TE and the the DE would align outside the Wing.   The strong side DT is over your PSG so your PST takes doubles on him with the PSG (rules - GOOD/GOD) There is a window that opens between the PST and the TE as the TE and the Wing are occupied with Sam.  M will fill the window. 

In a perfect world your BSG/BST get through that window and take on M.  However, the weak side N is tilted and attacking.  I think the D gets one of your pullers as your center may not be fast enough (we play alot of DW and I always attack the pullers).  That leaves one puller v. Mike with W filling.  I think that if talent is equal that there will be some plays where the DW will grind its five but there will be some that it will grind zero. 

I  ran DW for two years and have played against alot of DW teams.  Not knocking the DW but I think the its going to be tough to get 5+ a play on this D.  I know I am making alot of assumptions here and if there is a flaw in my logic please let me know.

Dave

Offline seeindouble

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 02:43:29 AM »
I think one solution to a WO, is to treat the 4th and 5th O-Linemen as the center of the O-Line, and bringing in an extra DT, and putting him in the gap between the 4th and 5th O-Linemen. You're basically swapping beef for their one less eligible.
-----------E-R---T----T----T--S--E
-------------O-O-O-C-O-O-O-O----------------
------------O--------Q---------------------------
----------------------F----------------------------

Offline seeindouble

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 03:07:13 AM »
I think one solution to a WO, is to treat the 4th and 5th O-Linemen as the center of the O-Line, and bringing in an extra DT, and putting him in the gap between the 4th and 5th O-Linemen. You're basically swapping beef for their one less eligible.
-----------E-R---T----T----T--S--E
-------------O-O-O-C-O-O-O-O----------------
------------O--------Q---------------------------
----------------------F----------------------------

And if they go Double WO, treat the 4th,5th, and 6th guy as the center of the O-Line, and putting in an extra DT between  the 5th and 6th O-Linemen. Just treat the OTs as Gs...
-----------E-R--T----T--T----T--S-E
------------O-O-O-O-C-O-O-O-O----------
------------------------Q-----------------------
------------------------F------------------------

Offline JrTitan

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2011, 06:16:13 AM »
This is how I would adjust to wing on:


By jrtitan at 2011-05-16

DE and S switch - Sam never aligns on an ineligible receiver.  With #2 receiver now in the backfield, on motion, the safety can drop down in the box filling inside C.  Mike and Will reads the OT,
"They call it coaching but it is teaching...You do not just tell them...you show them the reasons"

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Offline Yankee Charlie

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 06:31:29 AM »
I still think we double E as we look to kick the EMLOS.  Keep in mind the safety flowing hard over the top like that, makes this defense easier to TRAP at 5 under Power Motion.  The trick is the coach just has to realize it on the field.
"A boy comes to me with a spark of interest and it becomes a flame. I feed the flame and it becomes fire, I feed the fire and it becomes a roaring blaze" - Cus D'Amato, 1908-1985

Offline dbsesq

Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 10:04:35 AM »
This is how I would adjust to wing on:


By jrtitan at 2011-05-16

DE and S switch - Sam never aligns on an ineligible receiver.  With #2 receiver now in the backfield, on motion, the safety can drop down in the box filling inside C.  Mike and Will reads the OT,

Thanks for the correction, showing that Sam never aligns on ineligible reciever.

Offline seeindouble

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 10:19:05 AM »


By jrtitan at 2011-05-16


Are your DTs fingertip touch apart in that alignment?

Offline JrTitan

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 10:25:56 AM »
Are your DTs fingertip touch apart in that alignment?

Yes, which should put them head up to an inside shade.  They are responsible for the A gaps.  It's basically a wide tackle six alignment.
"They call it coaching but it is teaching...You do not just tell them...you show them the reasons"

"You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important."

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Offline jrk5150

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Re: 4-4 Split vs. DW
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 11:47:30 AM »
About the only flaw I see there is the same that the WT 6 has - if the DW has a PART blocking scheme in, you're going to have a problem.  Especially if that PART scheme is run off a counter cutback to take advantage of your FS coming up.  If your DT's are inside shade, you're susceptible to it.

So off that diagram - counter cutback with PART would look something like C blocks T, LG blocks N down, LT and LTE double R (if LT can stalemate him, the LTE goes out to E or even CB).  QB pitches to motion back and then stops and looks for E screaming in - if he's not, then QB has first to show outside.  RG pulls through hole along with FB and they double team W.  RT, if he can, pulls through to seal M.  If M runs through, he picks him up.  Either way, RT pretty much has M unless M fills right C gap, then he pulls through and seals inside, which is now FS trying to recover.  RTE cuts E.  RWB goes to FS.

Motion WB catches pitch, plants and cuts back through left B gap.  We really only need a stalemate on the N and R and he's off to the races because we're doubling W with our two best blockers.  We could probably cut N and R if we had to.  If N and T aren't playing low/cutting, you might be giving up wedge, so I don't think they can be all that mobile and still stop wedge.

On the other hand, fortunately IMO not many DW teams have counter cut back in, and I'd say fewer still have PART in.  I'd say that's probably the best D I've seen to play the DW because of that issue - it's a different blocking scheme, and we HATE adding blocking schemes, LOL.  So you are forcing us to use plays that we'd prefer not to have to, which is a good strategy.