Author Topic: P.A.T  (Read 6796 times)

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Offline CoachGuy

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 11:25:58 PM »
That's deep enough for sure.

Who is getting to the kick? Outside? Inside? Everybody?

Blocking techniques?

What about kicker's offset from the holder? 1x1? 3x2?

Kicker's approach? a giddy-up step while the holder is setting the ball? Full approach as soon as the holder receives the ball? Kicker waits until the ball is fully set before his approach?

Is the holder molding the ball before setting it, or on the way to the block? Is the holder aligning the laces before, during, or after setting it on the block?

And who is holding? MPP? QB? Other?

There is no single right answer. Various pieces will change in various years because of personnel. It would help to diagnose the past results you've had, and see if there is a single weakness or a combination of issues.

If you've got any video at all, it would help immensely.

Offline Coach Kyle

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2010, 02:05:16 AM »
That's deep enough for sure.

Who is getting to the kick? Outside? Inside? Everybody?

Blocking techniques?

What about kicker's offset from the holder? 1x1? 3x2?

Kicker's approach? a giddy-up step while the holder is setting the ball? Full approach as soon as the holder receives the ball? Kicker waits until the ball is fully set before his approach?

Is the holder molding the ball before setting it, or on the way to the block? Is the holder aligning the laces before, during, or after setting it on the block?

And who is holding? MPP? QB? Other?

There is no single right answer. Various pieces will change in various years because of personnel. It would help to diagnose the past results you've had, and see if there is a single weakness or a combination of issues.

If you've got any video at all, it would help immensely.
I looked, and luckily I found a great video of it. It's like the camera man walked on the field or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tHyGZ2XLJI

Now, this was by far the best one we tried, and it was blocked. The others weren't even close. I think the problem is the setter.

I let my assistant do all the field goal stuff, so I'm not 100% sure on how he taught it. I think they did 3 and 2. The kicker walked toward the ball as its being placed. What I usually saw was the person who placed it would be slower than that, and that would trip up the kicker. If they tried to slow it down any more, the blocking wouldn't last and they would get tackled.

Offline CoachGuy

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2010, 02:16:04 AM »
That's awesome footage to work with, Coach.

He had enough time to kick, but it looks like the kick might not have cleared the bar anyway.

The "low hanging fruit" here, in my opinion, is where your kicker is planting his foot. It is much too far behind the ball, and he is carrying his body through the kick, trying to make contact with the ball.

This is not the best teaching clip, but tune in to the approach and where the plant foot is placed. It allows for much better height on the kick.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3LG9k5bIoQ&feature=related[/youtube]

Offline mahonz

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2010, 09:57:07 AM »
In our league a kick is 2 points and a run / pass is one so every team tries to get the PAT kick going as young as possible. Every time you score and can kick and your opponent cant...you go up by two scores.

Any kid making PAT kicks that is younger than 10 is pretty rare. Plus if you keep on trying and never make it you are losing oppurtinities at a point after each score.

Coach Mike
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline davecisar

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 05:08:17 PM »
Our league gets 2 for PAT
With the exception of age 7-9 it is full rush
Ive seen these guys speak and own their videos-
 http://www.champonline.com/kohl-s-kicking-and-punting-2-pack-fd-02547.html
Cant squeeze everything they talk about into a post
Plant foot spacing and placement very important
Money very well spent IMO

We have had seasons where our age 7-9 kids hit 70% , others not as well
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 05:10:02 PM by davecisar »
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Offline Coach Kyle

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 06:26:57 PM »
In our league a kick is 2 points and a run / pass is one so every team tries to get the PAT kick going as young as possible. Every time you score and can kick and your opponent cant...you go up by two scores.

Any kid making PAT kicks that is younger than 10 is pretty rare. Plus if you keep on trying and never make it you are losing oppurtinities at a point after each score.

Coach Mike
Yeah, the only reason we kicked this game is because we knew we were going to win. So we let the kicker, who had been working on it for a while, kick in the game. The problem was that I had no idea how to make it work. So the poor kid didn't score any points. He was a great onside kicker though.

The other risk with PAT is that the good kids miss, too. You need someone who can make it at least 50% of the time, and even that is risky because what if you both only score once?

Offline Coach Kyle

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 06:30:20 PM »
That's awesome footage to work with, Coach.

He had enough time to kick, but it looks like the kick might not have cleared the bar anyway.

The "low hanging fruit" here, in my opinion, is where your kicker is planting his foot. It is much too far behind the ball, and he is carrying his body through the kick, trying to make contact with the ball.

This is not the best teaching clip, but tune in to the approach and where the plant foot is placed. It allows for much better height on the kick.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3LG9k5bIoQ&feature=related[/youtube]
Thanks. I still think the problem was with the placer though. That was definitely his best placement, which is kind of fortunate because that is what I wanted to show you. Half the time the kicker didn't have the chance to kick the ball and the place holder would get tackled. 

Offline CoachGuy

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 07:05:48 PM »
Thanks. I still think the problem was with the placer though. That was definitely his best placement, which is kind of fortunate because that is what I wanted to show you. Half the time the kicker didn't have the chance to kick the ball and the place holder would get tackled.

While I appreciate that the holder might generally be too slow (and may have been the reason in many past attempts,) if no defender was on the field, the kicker might not have cleared the bar. Generally speaking, unless someone has penetrated the line, a good kick will easily clear the highest outstretched and jumping fingertips.

Regarding the holder, he did a good job of getting down a slightly bobbled snap. I would recommend he not rush to watch the kick so quickly, as it might take his eye off his task.

Offline seeindouble

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2010, 09:48:07 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tHyGZ2XLJI


 The kicker walked toward the ball as its being placed. What I usually saw was the person who placed it would be slower than that, and that would trip up the kicker. If they tried to slow it down any more, the blocking wouldn't last and they would get tackled.

You're right, your holder still had two hands on the ball while your kicker had his plant foot down and his kicking leg in it's down-swing. As far as your kicker goes, was he more comfortable kicking straight on, or was it something that was coached? Seems like he needed a little more than 3 x 2 for a better approach, and his approach and follow through could've been a little better, doesn't seem like he was kicking through the ball.  Also, here's a video of Frank Beamer explaining the holding part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdveT6BbIas
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 11:37:35 AM by seeindouble »

Offline jrk5150

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2010, 05:47:48 PM »
Maybe my blocking was wrong? We had 9 guys in a line with their feet touching, always blocked the inside man. Or maybe we just weren't snapping it far enough? Maybe it was just too slow on the kick? I don't know.

The blocking was horrible.  Your LWB went for the outside guy, letting a guy fly right inside of him and to the ball.  Some of your line just stand there.  On  the right side, your guy kind of pushes his guy once and then lets him through.

Just because they aren't "firing out" doesn't mean they shouldn't be aggressive.  They should be looking to CRUSH anyone that tries their inside gap.

Worst case if you can't get them hitting - in HS, we literally put our heads to the inside guys hips.  We didn't move our feet, we just turned our upper body to the inside and put our hands and heads to the hip of the guy to the inside and leaned - it completely closed off the inside gaps.

When we teach the D to block the kick, we stack our LB's over the DT (4-2 front) and have the DT bull rush the OT to the inside, with the outside LB/stack trying to come off his hip between the OT and TE and get to the ball.  In other words, we want to beat a lazy down block by the TE.  The two DG's try to penetrate inside the OG's without hitting the C.  They're really just trying to occupy those G's.

Then we have either our DE or our CB try to beat the WB's to the INSIDE, with the other one taking a couple of hard steps straight at the WB, then dropping/holding for a fake.  That way, if the TE drives down hard for the LB coming over the OT, there should be a seam if the WB hesitates seeing both guys come straight at him.  And we keep our S playing zone.  Since we get 2 for kicks, it's not the end of the world if we give up a fake.  But it better be a good fake, as they aren't going to have much time, LOL.  And we have one guy on each side for contain, and the S in the middle, so we might have it covered.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 05:49:25 PM by jkoester »

Offline Wildcatcoach

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2010, 06:03:08 PM »
We kick FG and Extra Points startign at the 8's. Becuase of the two points it gives us we think it is worth risks.
Two TD's by us and extra points makes it 16. If the other score twice and goes for run or pass and makes it we are still up by 2 points. Total time commitment is about 10 min everyday with your snapper , holder and kickers
plus their backups 6 kids 1 coach...no goal post when you start the teaching. It gets in the way. Work steps and kicking then work placement thru up rights. Like golf head down on the ball ignore the rush, kick it.

I have this on another thread but below is a link to just our Special Teams kicking game.
My kicker last year I think missed 3 We were blessed with a lot of talent
and scored alot so our kicker had alot of opps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMR2UUpTKOQ

Wildcatcoach-Mark

Offline CoachGuy

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2010, 07:52:30 PM »
I'm still tellin' ya that the kicker's plant foot so far back and carrying his body so far forward gave you too low a trajectory on the ball  ;)

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2010, 10:38:17 PM »
I knew nothing about kicking and was still able to teach the snap, blocking, hold and kick.  I had my QB (first year player) holding and had him watch a few You Tube videos on holding.  I agree with Coach Guy though.  If the kicker gets the ball up it does not get blocked.  He was too far from the ball.  What I found to be a simple blocking technique that worked real well with a very inexperienced team was something very similar to wedge blocking.  Each lineman squeezed to his inside.  It stopped penetration up the middle.  I put my strongest, most athletic players on the wings and they were able to stop or slow the outside rushers long enough to get the kick off.  Good luck.

Offline Coach Kyle

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2010, 12:09:26 AM »
The blocking was horrible.  Your LWB went for the outside guy, letting a guy fly right inside of him and to the ball.  Some of your line just stand there.  On  the right side, your guy kind of pushes his guy once and then lets him through.

Just because they aren't "firing out" doesn't mean they shouldn't be aggressive.  They should be looking to CRUSH anyone that tries their inside gap.

Worst case if you can't get them hitting - in HS, we literally put our heads to the inside guys hips.  We didn't move our feet, we just turned our upper body to the inside and put our hands and heads to the hip of the guy to the inside and leaned - it completely closed off the inside gaps.

When we teach the D to block the kick, we stack our LB's over the DT (4-2 front) and have the DT bull rush the OT to the inside, with the outside LB/stack trying to come off his hip between the OT and TE and get to the ball.  In other words, we want to beat a lazy down block by the TE.  The two DG's try to penetrate inside the OG's without hitting the C.  They're really just trying to occupy those G's.

Then we have either our DE or our CB try to beat the WB's to the INSIDE, with the other one taking a couple of hard steps straight at the WB, then dropping/holding for a fake.  That way, if the TE drives down hard for the LB coming over the OT, there should be a seam if the WB hesitates seeing both guys come straight at him.  And we keep our S playing zone.  Since we get 2 for kicks, it's not the end of the world if we give up a fake.  But it better be a good fake, as they aren't going to have much time, LOL.  And we have one guy on each side for contain, and the S in the middle, so we might have it covered.
I'm surprised someone didn't point out the blocking sooner, and again, I put my assistant on this job. I think he told them to just take one step together. I'm pretty sure the wing was supposed to take the most inside guy and didn't, but the TE on the right side... well I think he wanted to see the kick  ;D

Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: P.A.T
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2010, 09:29:34 PM »
P.A.T. & F.G. PROTECTION:

---------------------K
--------------------H
--------------O-----------O
---------------OOOCOOO

LINEMEN:  6” SPLIT.  THE LINE IS BOWED, WITH INSIDE FOOT BACK (& A LITTLE BEHIND TEAMMATE’S OUTSIDE FOOT), & OUTSIDE FOOT AT HEEL OF MAN INSIDE (GET INTO HIS INSTEP).  KEY SNAP OF BALL OUT OF THE CORNER OF YOUR EYE.  ON SNAP, STEP INSIDE WITH INSIDE FOOT BEHIND THE HEEL OF INSIDE TEAMMATE – KEEP OUTSIDE LEG WELDED TO THE GROUND.  KEEP SHOULDERS SQUARE (BOTH HANDS UP TO PUNCH) AND KEEP YOUR CENTER LINE OF GRAVITY.  YOU HAVE INSIDE GAP CONTROL BUT CAN HELP YOUR BUDDY OUTSIDE WHILE CONTROLLING YOUR GAP.

WING:  INSIDE FOOT IN MIDLINE OF TIGHT END.  DON’T MOVE INSIDE FOOT.  PUNCH INSIDE & RICOCHET BACK OUTSIDE ONE STEP & MAKE OUTSIDE RUSHER CHANGE HIS LINE OF RUSH. 

HOLDER:  6 OR 7 YDS DEEP.  LEFT KNEE UP.  BALL PLACED WITH LEFT HAND.

AN EXCELLENT TIME IS 1.25 SECONDS FROM SNAP TO KICK (HIGH SCHOOL TIME)
My Contact Info: Coach Bill Mountjoy phone: 804-716-7038 EST /  Email: butzadams@hotmail.com