Author Topic: Nasty w/Toss  (Read 3202 times)

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Offline Comas

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Nasty w/Toss
« on: October 15, 2013, 05:37:10 PM »
When using Nasty with the Toss, do the WB & TE join the inner wall or does the TE go to the 2nd level?

Thanks --

Offline CoachJJ

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Re: Nasty w/Toss
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 10:43:10 AM »
How NASTY do you want to be ??
Are you talking about FLEXing the TE out a little bit ??
How does the defense react ??

We really don't use FLEX very often ... years ago we would use it a fair amount but as we have gotten better at teaching our wall to get movement and we have gotten better at teaching the kickout block we have found that we don't really need it much anymore ... another reason (maybe even more important) is these days 'everyone' is having the DT slant out, slide out, move to a 5 tech, or just backup ... all of these techniques are to avoid the OT and try to take on the TE solo or to avoid him as well and just jump over our wall ... in most of these scenarios I think flexing the TE would make the job easier on the defense and tougher on us unless we are seeing an EAGLE TNT type front where the DT is down inside the OT ... 

That being said, we used to start with a about a 12" split ... just enough to make the DE slide out to make an easier kickout block ... if our FB still struggled we would use FLEX and Tunnel block it (TE and WB would double the DE and FB and pullers would lead up through the hole) ... then we might go as much as 18" to see if the DE would play our TE head up or move inside at which point we would run Super Power and block him down ... the problem with this was no 'superman' block from our TE as he is too wide to be in the FBZ ... so we would have to call FLEX SUPER POWER STAY (keeping the OT home and just pulling the SG ...

I am not a big fan of adjustments that force blocking scheme changes because that ends up being 2 new things we have to do and that many more reps we have to get ... so over the years we don't really do that much ... 
Coach JJ
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"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
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  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York

Offline coachgregory

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Re: Nasty w/Toss
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 04:25:14 PM »
How NASTY do you want to be ??
Are you talking about FLEXing the TE out a little bit ??
How does the defense react ??

We really don't use FLEX very often ... years ago we would use it a fair amount but as we have gotten better at teaching our wall to get movement and we have gotten better at teaching the kickout block we have found that we don't really need it much anymore ... another reason (maybe even more important) is these days 'everyone' is having the DT slant out, slide out, move to a 5 tech, or just backup ... all of these techniques are to avoid the OT and try to take on the TE solo or to avoid him as well and just jump over our wall ... in most of these scenarios I think flexing the TE would make the job easier on the defense and tougher on us unless we are seeing an EAGLE TNT type front where the DT is down inside the OT ... 

That being said, we used to start with a about a 12" split ... just enough to make the DE slide out to make an easier kickout block ... if our FB still struggled we would use FLEX and Tunnel block it (TE and WB would double the DE and FB and pullers would lead up through the hole) ... then we might go as much as 18" to see if the DE would play our TE head up or move inside at which point we would run Super Power and block him down ... the problem with this was no 'superman' block from our TE as he is too wide to be in the FBZ ... so we would have to call FLEX SUPER POWER STAY (keeping the OT home and just pulling the SG ...

I am not a big fan of adjustments that force blocking scheme changes because that ends up being 2 new things we have to do and that many more reps we have to get ... so over the years we don't really do that much ...

JJ,

We made it really simple... If we call NASTY the WB and TE flip flop so the split is about 2 feet.  When it is called it automatically tells the TE and WB to double  kickout the DE if he is aligned outside shade (contain).  FB/QB/BSG rule still applies so you could get a triple team on the DE but more often than not he kicked out the first to show which was a DT that widen or a OLB that gapped/blitzed.  And gainst a tough DT/OLB we called double to get a double kick on him and we still got the BSG kicking out the next level.  It was a very simple adjustment.  We always used OVER to get the four man wall but since we can use POWER SWEEP and POWER PASS out of OVER and we can audible (RAZZLE) away from the wall side it was not a big key for the defense.  We got a lot of milage on that adjustment....we could kick the crap out of stud DE all day using it.   In POWER SWEEP the TE/WB double log the DE if he moves in (notice the trend)...DE is getting his ass kicked no matter what :)

Jack
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Offline Tripwire

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Re: Nasty w/Toss
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 09:23:21 PM »
Nice!  The only thing we did different was we have a beast TE that can control pretty much any DE on his own, so told the WB to take 1st to show outside of TE.  Then everyone else went normal.  The FB usually ended up with the WB doubling either an OLB or Corner.
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

Offline CoachJJ

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Re: Nasty w/Toss
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 11:21:42 AM »
JJ,

We made it really simple... If we call NASTY the WB and TE flip flop so the split is about 2 feet.  When it is called it automatically tells the TE and WB to double  kickout the DE if he is aligned outside shade (contain).  FB/QB/BSG rule still applies so you could get a triple team on the DE but more often than not he kicked out the first to show which was a DT that widen or a OLB that gapped/blitzed.  And gainst a tough DT/OLB we called double to get a double kick on him and we still got the BSG kicking out the next level.  It was a very simple adjustment.  We always used OVER to get the four man wall but since we can use POWER SWEEP and POWER PASS out of OVER and we can audible (RAZZLE) away from the wall side it was not a big key for the defense.  We got a lot of milage on that adjustment....we could kick the crap out of stud DE all day using it.   In POWER SWEEP the TE/WB double log the DE if he moves in (notice the trend)...DE is getting his ass kicked no matter what :)

Jack

That is great stuff ... in fact, that is the start of a GREAT presentation for the Symposium ... hint hint ... March 7 & 8 ... hint hint ...

Seriously, we just don't have issues with DEs anymore ... I cant really say why ... lucky maybe ... these days our main efforts involve how the DTs are playing ... might be the result of a league that has been dominated by TKO blocking for so many years ... but the top teams in our league have stud DTs and they are the guys we are scheming for ...

I love the simplicity of your NASTY call ... in fact, I might have to play around with that for our new DSDW we are playing around with this year ... I will let you know what I come up with ...
Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York

Offline coachgregory

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Re: Nasty w/Toss
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2013, 07:31:47 AM »
That is great stuff ... in fact, that is the start of a GREAT presentation for the Symposium ... hint hint ... March 7 & 8 ... hint hint ...

Seriously, we just don't have issues with DEs anymore ... I cant really say why ... lucky maybe ... these days our main efforts involve how the DTs are playing ... might be the result of a league that has been dominated by TKO blocking for so many years ... but the top teams in our league have stud DTs and they are the guys we are scheming for ...

I love the simplicity of your NASTY call ... in fact, I might have to play around with that for our new DSDW we are playing around with this year ... I will let you know what I come up with ...


I will say this 9 out of 10 time the BB, QB, BSG kick out wall handles most of what we see at the DE/EDGE especially when we can call double and get a double/triple kick out on a stud.  But on a occassion we face a really tough DE that is game breaker and having a simple answer for him like this helped us overcome that issue.  One of the things I love about TKO and the kick out wall is it's simplicity of seeing who is causing a problem and quickly resolving it.   

Jack
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Offline Comas

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Re: Nasty w/Toss
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2013, 11:39:22 AM »
Sorry I posted and ended on the road for work and just now able to reply.   

I have tried giving my TE the option of flexing up to about 12" to push the DE out to help the BB on the kick-out but we are still a little crammed in the backfield - more my QB was trying to double the DE when the BB does not need help but for some reason he is glued to assisting.     

Most everyone we have played has a DE that comes up the field hard right on the edge of the TE and they put a CB way out in the flat believing we are really running a sweep.   We (3rd - 4th graders) run three plays 90% of the time, Toss either way and Wedge.   Then of course run a counter or reverse and we have run reverses off the Wedge when the other team crashes hard and tries to come behind the Wedge.   I cannot tell you how impressed I have been with the Wedge.  That play has single handily defined our season thus far. 

So in Nasty (flipping the TE & WB) I was hoping to create a little more space for the alley to develop.   I am also going to start calling Twins (Loose) \ Slot etc.... to give different looks.     

Thanks for the advice - it is all helping immensely.