Author Topic: Defending the UBSW Offense  (Read 158426 times)

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Offline HCScott

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #195 on: June 12, 2014, 01:01:50 AM »
Not quite sure what you mean by a "limited number of teams"?

PS:  There have been 177 posts on this topic.  All one has to do is to look back at the defenses that the greatest defensive minds of the 20th century used to drive the UBSW into oblivion after WWII (BEGINNING in 1945).  These men were:  Bob Neyland, Bud Wilkinson, & "Bear" Bryant.  They ALL used the Wide Tackle-6 & Overshifted-6 (as originated by Neyland).  Disciples of Neyland (Tennessee) & Bryant (Bama) coached all OVER Virginia (in youth ball, as well as high school).  Do a little research on these 3 great coaches (Wilkinson & Bryant wrote BOOKS on the subject, & a book is also now out about Neyland's methods).

When I started out Bud Wilkinson was who I tried to emulate. I read a book he wrote, can't remember the title now but I follow his philosophy.
"The quarterback must go down and he must go down hard"

Offline HCScott

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #196 on: June 12, 2014, 01:06:18 AM »
Do you know of Connell HS in Connell Washington?  They use our One-Back offense.
Former Redskins Clint Didier is currently the co-head football coach, along with Wayne Riner, at Connell High School in Connell, Washington. They have led the Eagles to several state championships.

Craig Beverlin also ran the offense in HS ball in Washington with great success.  He is still coaching.

PS:  You might enjoy this ATTACHMENT (re:  WT-6):

I really enjoy the history of football that you include with the reasoning behind your advice.
"The quarterback must go down and he must go down hard"

Offline HCScott

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #197 on: June 12, 2014, 01:09:13 AM »
Dave

Do you have an advanced version of your D as well...other than the Viper we have talked about that you no longer use?

If we ever get to play each other one of these decades I will insist that Mahnoz Jr runs the 29 at you. THEN you can say you have seen it all.  :P

Amazing how well that goofy idea worked.  ::)

I think that 29 would get wedged to death. Tell me more.
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #198 on: June 12, 2014, 03:53:56 AM »
OK, maybe with all the heavy weights involved in this thread I should just shut-up and read, but then again, when did I learn to do that (never).

I have my own theory as to why SW/DW/generally contrarian offenses do better than average in youth ball, especially if compared with more mainstream offenses.

What type of coach will take the time to look into an offense, read about it, buy a book or find some info online, and buy into a SYSTEM?

Chances are, a coach who wants to be more organized than your average Joe (no offense meant Coach Joe -- we all know you are not average :)

I'm OK up to here.



Quote
That kind of coach will more often than not have some kind of understanding of blocking rules, techniques, organized practice, and would probably have success with almost ANY OFFENSE.

Here I disagree.  Dave Cisar tried to run Nebraska's "I" formation offense but did better (same coach, same players) with UBSW.  The UBSW is a beautiful offense.  You're using only one puller, the Tackle Eligible is drawing two defenders, even if he's an MPP, and the contain defender is an easy kick for BB.  The "spinner" is also very effective. 

Defending UBSW is not the same as defending "T" football.  If you look at Bill's WT6 defense, which was created from Day ONE to defend UBSW, you'll still see he makes an adjustment for UBSW.  Failure to make the adjustment is to lose.  Every UBSW team I ever faced was undefeated until they met me.  If you're trying to defend it with John Madden's X Box, good luck.

The offense does not work on the same principals as "T" formation football.  Thus, "T" formation defenses don't work.

Cisar and I approached offense very much the same.  I went back to 1940.  I figured my players had the necessary intellect/talent to play 1940 football.  Cisar one upped me by going back to 1939.  I thought that was "dinosaur" football in which my players would learn nothing if they went on to HS ball.  And it had already been beaten then anyway.  Football scores looked like baseball scores in 1939.

But it still works today.

And it's because it's not the same as "T".  It's not being the same that makes it work.  In 1939, it was a DEAD offense.  But what's old becomes NEW again if enough years go by. 

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post.

 






"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #199 on: June 12, 2014, 04:11:28 AM »
According to diagram 10- which is what he was running- PT blocks near backer which is FS
Y blocks near backer- for him that's the OLB- S

OK.  That makes sense.  Otherwise they were crossing and running into each other.

BTW, your responses are nicely played. 

The principal problem with this thread was that no one that ran UBSW replied to the posted "D" .  The only way to make it educational was to bring you back.  Otherwise, it became a thread of everyone who had ever beaten an UBSW.



Quote
This team obviously doesn't like to throw- from the film Ive seen they've thrown just 1 pass and it was a horribly designed play= not in my book
They have done nothing to make the safety play pass or back up and not play downhill

The usual reason for this is they can't complete the pass in practice.  I have DCWT coaches that won't throw either because, to them, the INC is a wasted down.  Who cares if it's INC.  If you throw it, THEY'LL COVER IT no matter how it ends. 

They won't if you don't.

I guarantee I've got your WB covered regardless of who I play against. 

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #200 on: June 12, 2014, 04:17:27 AM »


Implementing the Single Wing Offense: 303 - DVD and Instant PDF Download
 Product Code – SW303DVD
$49.95

order now   

 
DVD Run Time nearly 90 minutes includes 219 page CDROM book (Instant PDF Download). The Advanced Single Wing Implementation DVD and CDROM is NOT meant for the first year Single Wing coach. This DVD has plays, adjustments and game planning information never before shared. Includes nuances on many base plays as well as the Jet, Burst and Spread Single Wing plays. The 219 page addendum gets everyone caught up to where we are today as well as offers pictures, diagrams and text on concepts like Special, Super Series, Buck Series, Omaha, Smoke Pass Series, Cross Pass Series, Air Raid Package, 14 Trap, 14 Power, 24 Iso, Flash Series, 16 Pass Nuances, 18 Pass Nuances, how to attack specific defenses, play calling, keys for every play, and much more. You also get a tutorial on how to you’re your team better using film and Hudl. Includes all primary keys and complimentary play keys for each and every play we run. Great new footage to help keep you one step ahead of your competition.

LOL!  You got away with posting an ad because you included useful information in your other posts.

Don't anybody else try this!   >:(
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #201 on: June 12, 2014, 04:20:50 AM »
Do you know of Connell HS in Connell Washington?  They use our One-Back offense.
Former Redskins Clint Didier is currently the co-head football coach, along with Wayne Riner, at Connell High School in Connell, Washington. They have led the Eagles to several state championships.

Craig Beverlin also ran the offense in HS ball in Washington with great success.  He is still coaching.

PS:  You might enjoy this ATTACHMENT (re:  WT-6):

I know them all!
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #202 on: June 12, 2014, 04:27:04 AM »
Once the "Who can piss the furthest" contest is over I have a question for Dave on his "14 Power" play as I have one questionable doubt on it working.  But I ain't joining the pissing contest.  Let me know Dave, if you want to field it.
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Offline davecisar

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #203 on: June 12, 2014, 07:24:13 AM »
LOL!  You got away with posting an ad because you included useful information in your other posts.

Don't anybody else try this!   >:(

Clark

My apologies, take it down no problem. That wasn't my intent.

The intent was to show Mike who said there wasn't a 14 play anywhere in my materials or that I'm hiding things from people. I walked him through that play many times right here on the forum.

 It was to prove that those plays have been in our playbook for a LONG time. In fact some of those 14 plays are even listed in the Add for the product and always have been. Mike had made that accusation that Ive been hiding things several times- I just wanted to make completely sure he got what Ive been telling him for years is true. I told him that very same thing many times- he just didn't seem to get that.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:10:26 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

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Offline davecisar

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #204 on: June 12, 2014, 07:40:38 AM »
OK.  That makes sense.  Otherwise they were crossing and running into each other.

BTW, your responses are nicely played. 

The principal problem with this thread was that no one that ran UBSW replied to the posted "D" .  The only way to make it educational was to bring you back.  Otherwise, it became a thread of everyone who had ever beaten an UBSW.



The usual reason for this is they can't complete the pass in practice.  I have DCWT coaches that won't throw either because, to them, the INC is a wasted down.  Who cares if it's INC.  If you throw it, THEY'LL COVER IT no matter how it ends. 

They won't if you don't.

I guarantee I've got your WB covered regardless of who I play against.

Clark

That is reality in youth football, you are 100% correct. With some teams no matter how well you coach the kids up, they still cant consistently throw and catch the football. We use the Slack materials to coach all of our throwers, our receivers coach is top notch- coached DII ball, HS and VERY good youth coach. Last year our kids couldn't catch a cold- our best QB wasn't bad, as the season progressed- he went from maybe a skill level 3 to maybe a 7. We had a decade low- just 6 TD passes in 12 games- embarrassingly low. First time we repped the 18 pass in practice in team- we were something like 0-13. BUT we still threw and we threw strategically to make it appear like we had a passing threat that was a threat enough to score- that it  put constraints on the defenses we played. BTW the year before, same age group, Indys taught by same coaching staff- we threw 15-16 TD passes at 3-4 grade. So what you are saying is 100% true- MAYBE they didn't have any type of passing threat. That's youth football, especially at the age 8-9 level.

BUT, I have a lot of experience dealing with fellas that run my stuff.  What I often times see with SW teams running my stuff is, that despite my warnings to develop their QBs and Receivers and a passing game, they choose not to. Many of them are reeling off 30-40 pt wins every week and don't bother to invest the time to make a passing game work. If it aint broke, don't fix it is what many of them are thinking- they are leading leagues in scoring and they get overconfident. That's a HUGE mistake IMO. They do other things like don't use the adjustments I recommend and others- I get lots of film.

So did they disregard my advice or did they just not have the kids to make a consistent passing game work? We wont ever know for sure, but from the only pass play we saw, the fundys were poor, the design was poor and it was thrown on a terrible down and distance. Their QB is a nice little athlete- but again maybe they don't have a single kid who could catch the ball in practice- like you stated, it happens.

The WB isn't the only player we throw to- we have several passes to both TEs, the BB and FB
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:07:15 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline davecisar

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #205 on: June 12, 2014, 08:02:53 AM »
Once the "Who can piss the furthest" contest is over I have a question for Dave on his "14 Power" play as I have one questionable doubt on it working.  But I ain't joining the pissing contest.  Let me know Dave, if you want to field it.

Clark,

No worries

I was responding to what I saw on film, which is what was on slide 10

Feel free to ask away

Jack Gregory, I guy I admire and respect said he doesn't bother getting involved in chalk wars. TO paraphrase what he said IIRC was that the only thing that matters is what happens on grass. All the best laid lines and plans always look perfect on paper, but the only thing that matters is how the kids playing execute fundamental football on grass. It's not what the coaches know, its what can an average 8-9 year old kid do in real life.

When I did my clinic in Panama, John (Chris) Carbon and I talked about this over beers. He said he once heard a coach present a defense where IIRC the playside CB would yell some type of call at the backside ISLB- while the play was going on to alert him of a specific key. In real life, that doesn't work. My personal experience- drew up a killer Dart series for my SW- thought it would be an incredibly successful series for us, really stretch the D in ways other series didn't. It looked great on paper. I tried it with 2 different teams 2 different years- was a bust with both teams. Meanwhile a very simple- really TOO simple Burst series, that doesn't look like much of anything, ends up being a killer for us.

Note that 14 is just 1 play- right out of the box that I thought was a reasonable answer for teams that stunt like that. We have other plays and approaches- and he who has the chalk last wins. So like Jack IMO a lot of the chalk wars are pointless, but I respect you- so go ahead.
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Offline davecisar

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #206 on: June 12, 2014, 08:41:48 AM »
I'm OK up to here.



Here I disagree.  Dave Cisar tried to run Nebraska's "I" formation offense but did better (same coach, same players) with UBSW.  The UBSW is a beautiful offense.  You're using only one puller, the Tackle Eligible is drawing two defenders, even if he's an MPP, and the contain defender is an easy kick for BB.  The "spinner" is also very effective. 

Defending UBSW is not the same as defending "T" football.  If you look at Bill's WT6 defense, which was created from Day ONE to defend UBSW, you'll still see he makes an adjustment for UBSW.  Failure to make the adjustment is to lose.  Every UBSW team I ever faced was undefeated until they met me.  If you're trying to defend it with John Madden's X Box, good luck.

The offense does not work on the same principals as "T" formation football.  Thus, "T" formation defenses don't work.

Cisar and I approached offense very much the same.  I went back to 1940.  I figured my players had the necessary intellect/talent to play 1940 football.  Cisar one upped me by going back to 1939.  I thought that was "dinosaur" football in which my players would learn nothing if they went on to HS ball.  And it had already been beaten then anyway.  Football scores looked like baseball scores in 1939.

But it still works today.

And it's because it's not the same as "T".  It's not being the same that makes it work.  In 1939, it was a DEAD offense.  But what's old becomes NEW again if enough years go by. 

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post.


Clark,

That is true for the most part

I'm a Nebraska guy. So I ran "I" option, Power Stuff and even Power I
One of my coaches was a Veer guy- taught it at HS- so Ive run Veer
Ran a rudimentary Shotgun spread system
Ive run Markham Double Wing

We were up and down= when we had great talent we won and won some league titles
When I didn't have that stud QB and TB- we were .500, even had a couple of losing seasons

I examined everything we did
Changed most of it- from how we taught, to what we taught. team management- everything
Left no stones unturned

When I chose offenses- had a BUNCH of criteria
Winning was one of them- but not the only one by a long shot
We couldn't afford to have our success be tied to if we got good QBs and TBs every year
I WANT TO GET EVERYONE THE FOOTBALL- when it makes sense, that was another
When we are up by 4 + scores, we start rotating everyone in at the QB spot and we run off-tackle. Catch and run to 1 spot. The FB aligns you and calls the cadence for you. We teach the kids how to do that in the endzone at halftime of blowouts. Waste no practice time at all. Last 6 years every eligible player on my team has carried at least one time. In that time period, probably 70+ different kids have scored.
Have a complete list of the criteria- which was about 20 points long

Since then- 18 seasons- in 4 different leagues
Just 1 losing season
161-21
Take out the one losing season and its 158-15

How much of it is due to the SIngle WIng?
 A VERY important part- but just a piece of the puzzle
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:51:55 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline Luc

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #207 on: June 12, 2014, 08:51:24 AM »
The intent was to show Mike who said there wasn't a 14 play anywhere in my materials or that I'm hiding things from people. It was to prove that those plays have been in our playbook for a LONG time. In fact some of those 14 plays are even listed in the Add for the product and always have been.
Disclaimer:
- Coach Cisar I have said many times that I recommend your book for any youth coach who doesn't know where to start and doesn't have much money or time to invest because as far as I know, it's the best $30 (or whatever amount it is) a youth coach could invest to get a complete solution to a particularly hairy problem, ie, having to coach a bunch of kids when you have no idea of where to start.
- I have not see your more advanced material, so I don't have an opinion on it.

Now this being said, this post is not a coach to coach post (we are not in the same league, you are way up there, and I am very clearly way down here), but as a man to man post, or maybe a customer review post, who knows.

What Mike and I did mention was that we both have "your book" (singular, not plural) and that nowhere in it could we find that 14 play.

At that point I don't believe you had mentioned that it was in the more advance material, and we didn't either. When someone refers to "your book", I would expect that unless stated otherwise, that someone is talking about "Winning Youth Football - A Step by Step Plan", the base of your system. If not, I would expect that the book being referred to is named so that people know what is being talked about, but then, maybe that's just me, if I made wrong assumption, I'm sorry I did, but I still believe it would help in discussions not to refer to 303 or any other advanced material as "the book".

Also, while I'm at it, it sorts of pisses me off to see in multiple threads coaches who buy your material being characterized as not applying tags and finishing the season 8-2 and losing in the second round of the playoffs as not following the recipe, or being clueless (if not in the exact words, in the tone for sure) and generally making you or your system look bad.

For many youth coaches out there, and without having access to any of your sales data, I would expect for a vast part of your paying customers, investing just in your first general book, achieving 60% of what you propose, having a winning season and actually going to the playoffs is a MAJOR ACHIEVEMENTS!

They just proved the point of your whole approach. Now because they did not buy the 303 or whatever advanced material (Coach, they might not even install 80% of that first book -- EVER -- and be very successful coaches during their glorified 3 years career!) somehow they aren't using your material?

Flash news: Once they bought the thing, it's THEIRS and they can implement it as they see fit. Now if they can't call it Coach Cisar's because they don't follow the book to the letter, maybe you should consider putting a disclaimer at the beginning of the book about that.

PS: I have used ideas and drills from your book a few weeks ago, and actually pointed the provenance out to the Coaches in my org. I will make sure not to do that again next time since I don't install the whole thing and wouldn't want anybody to think that what we do this year could possibly cast a bad light on you or your material.

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Offline Luc

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #208 on: June 12, 2014, 08:58:07 AM »
Here I disagree.  Dave Cisar tried to run Nebraska's "I" formation offense but did better (same coach, same players) with UBSW.  The UBSW is a beautiful offense.  You're using only one puller, the Tackle Eligible is drawing two defenders, even if he's an MPP, and the contain defender is an easy kick for BB.  The "spinner" is also very effective. 
Coach I'm not sure about the 'history', but I believe that Coach Cisar stop coaching for 2 years in between and went studying winning programs and losing programs, and improved the way his teams practiced and a lot of other things beside switching to the SW.

That the SW was part of the success, I have no doubt (I do believe it's a beautiful offense too), but maybe the rest of the system was even more significant in the success he had after the switch.

Probably only him could tell.

Luc
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Offline davecisar

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #209 on: June 12, 2014, 09:06:44 AM »
Luc

The fellas Mike played have been running the system for several years
They attended a clinic about 4-5 years ago
They are supposed to be beyond the basic 6 base plays
They aren't a first year system team taking baby steps

Again NO ONE wants to read or buy a 600 page youth football book- that's why we never suggest first year programs go beyond the base. YEar 2 we always recommend taking the next logical step- which is Single WIng 303. Most guys are thrilled to go 8-2 in year 1, 303 is designed to get you to 12-0- National Championships etc

When I watched that film- less than 1/2 the plays were from any of my materials and were of very poor design.
When someone is claiming someone is running my system- and that team isn't running even 1/2 their plays from my playbook- IMO they aren't running my system.
Not a single adjustment- not one and that is covered in the base book
When I see very poorly designed plays, I point them out.
There were some very simple answers to that equation that if they followed our approach right out of the book. Mikes team tackles well and they did a nice job, but when they can disrupt a high scoring offense with a simple stunt-- that we all run into- that's not great coaching. 

 
We provide the answers they don't have- by the sheer weight and experience of having been able to Head Coach 182 games in the offense- where weve been able to "systemize" answers and an approach to make sure it happens.  It's very disappointing when the answers are right there- and they are provided- and talked about adnaseum in the materials and clinics.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 09:13:51 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill