Author Topic: Defending the UBSW Offense  (Read 158423 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9078
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #210 on: June 12, 2014, 09:29:35 AM »
I will say to this day after 4 yrs of coaching I have had my best season running Cisar's SW
1 game shy of the Championship

Why I continue to change offenses like underwear is beyond me. I cant stay interested in one even if it works for very long, don't know why. Wish I could find an AC who didn't use the "just block somebody offense" and I could just take the defense and be a happy man.

Coach

We all have wandering eyes when it comes to offenses
It's fun learning something different and trying to make it work for the first time

Have a great season- in whatever offense or defense you choose to run

Just don't say you are running mine when your playbook is less than 1/2 mine and you aren't running a single adjustment or hate passing  ;D


DC
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline MHcoach

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7753
  • Total likes: 1847
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #211 on: June 12, 2014, 09:43:28 AM »
DC

IMHO the difference between going 8-2 & 12-0, is that the 8-2 coach just wants to be good, while the 12-0 coach wants to be great. The 8-2er only sees what his team does well, That 12-0er works on what they don't do well. You can never be happy with your team is doing against poor teams, what are they doing against good teams is what's important.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

Offline angalton

  • Gold
  • Posts: 2570
  • Total likes: 303
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Wishbone
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #212 on: June 12, 2014, 09:52:10 AM »
This thread isn't just about Cisar's ubsw, is it?  I have only faced one team, multiple times, that ran ubsw. They are a very good team, but struggled against us. We ran a 4-4 and had a d- line that was dominant. Our backers were sure tacklers and very athletic. This doesn't mean that a 4-4 is a sw killer or I would beat any sw team. Our dline was unblock able for all the teams we played. A year up from us is sw team that hasn't ever lost since they started at age 5. Their opponents may be very interested on how to stop this team. I am saying if my line dominates your line, your in trouble. Plus we all have different rules we play by. We are unlimited weight with striper rule. So I am going to break down my practice a little different. One persons system may be tweaked a bit to serve our needs. I tried SAB blocking last year and had horrible results. It doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means I coached it horribly. Coach Jack has great success and is 10 times the coach I am. I would love to here Coach Cisar's ways of beating the ubsw, rather than defend the ubsw. I am sure that would not be in his best interest, but I would be all ears( or eyes ). That would actually go for anyone, how do you line up and play ubsw. Do you do anything different? We really just practiced block destruction, taking on double teams, rip, swim moves, tackling( multiple ways), and take offs with speed and power.
The greatest accomplishment is not in never failing, but in rising again after you fail.

Offline belebuch

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 6039
  • Total likes: 81
  • Coaching: 6 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Other
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #213 on: June 12, 2014, 10:12:07 AM »
Coach

We all have wandering eyes when it comes to offenses
It's fun learning something different and trying to make it work for the first time

Have a great season- in whatever offense or defense you choose to run

Just don't say you are running mine when your playbook is less than 1/2 mine and you aren't running a single adjustment or hate passing  ;D


DC

Thanks Coach, same to you as well. Oh no when we ran your stuff we were all in straight out of the book/dvds with most of your tags and adjustments. We had a pretty good passing game as well. It was a great season, one im sure we ll always remember.

Offline Luc

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1471
  • Total likes: 5
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Split
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #214 on: June 12, 2014, 10:33:23 AM »
Luc

The fellas Mike played have been running the system for several years
They attended a clinic about 4-5 years ago
They are supposed to be beyond the basic 6 base plays
They aren't a first year system team taking baby steps

Again NO ONE wants to read or buy a 600 page youth football book- that's why we never suggest first year programs go beyond the base. YEar 2 we always recommend taking the next logical step- which is Single WIng 303. Most guys are thrilled to go 8-2 in year 1, 303 is designed to get you to 12-0- National Championships etc

When I watched that film- less than 1/2 the plays were from any of my materials and were of very poor design.
When someone is claiming someone is running my system- and that team isn't running even 1/2 their plays from my playbook- IMO they aren't running my system.
Not a single adjustment- not one and that is covered in the base book
When I see very poorly designed plays, I point them out.
There were some very simple answers to that equation that if they followed our approach right out of the book. Mikes team tackles well and they did a nice job, but when they can disrupt a high scoring offense with a simple stunt-- that we all run into- that's not great coaching. 

 
We provide the answers they don't have- by the sheer weight and experience of having been able to Head Coach 182 games in the offense- where weve been able to "systemize" answers and an approach to make sure it happens.  It's very disappointing when the answers are right there- and they are provided- and talked about adnaseum in the materials and clinics.
Coach Cisar,

First sorry about the piss and vinegar, that was uncalled for.

Second, I understand how frustrating it can be to give someone a working solution and see them not implement it and then complain it doesn't work.

But not everyone out there has the time/inclination/dedication to go beyond the "8-2" season. For some of them, that's great already, and they are more than happy about the results AND the process. That's my whole point without the vinegar I guess.

I know a lot of good guys who don't get up in the morning thinking "how could I best destroy some young lives today by being a sub par football coach?".

They don't have the 3000 hours I put in the last 3 years. They actually can't begin to understand I put that kind of time. They barely manage to find enough time for the practices and games, and planning the practices somewhere/sometime else than on the field just before the practice is alien to them.

And no, that's not great coaching. I think we all are in agreement on that.

Luc
To be good you have to work hard. To be better, you have to work harder. To be great, you have to keep working when the good ones stop.

Offline Luc

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1471
  • Total likes: 5
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Split
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #215 on: June 12, 2014, 10:36:18 AM »
DC
IMHO the difference between going 8-2 & 12-0, is that the 8-2 coach just wants to be good, while the 12-0 coach wants to be great. The 8-2er only sees what his team does well, That 12-0er works on what they don't do well. You can never be happy with your team is doing against poor teams, what are they doing against good teams is what's important.
Joe
Yes!

It's like when you get to the playoffs and some people start thinking "let's hope we don't run into that team first" or anything like that.

I think it doesn't matter who you face in first round if your goal is to win it all. Eventually, you will have to beat the other good teams, whether it's in the first or last week.

Luc
To be good you have to work hard. To be better, you have to work harder. To be great, you have to keep working when the good ones stop.

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9078
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #216 on: June 12, 2014, 10:41:56 AM »
DC

IMHO the difference between going 8-2 & 12-0, is that the 8-2 coach just wants to be good, while the 12-0 coach wants to be great. The 8-2er only sees what his team does well, That 12-0er works on what they don't do well. You can never be happy with your team is doing against poor teams, what are they doing against good teams is what's important.

Joe

Joe

I hear you, with you for the most part

Sure often times the difference between 8-2 and 12-0 is that extra mile of coaching

I have no idea if that is the case with the team Mike played
They looked like they stacked up Ok against Mikes team- but missed out on some basic scheme things


For me to go 12-0 vs 8-2 Ive got to max out my coaching- but I usually need a couple of difference makers. Most years I cant be in the bottom 35%. They don't need to be 10s, I just need some 7s and 8s mixed in there a bit.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 11:16:09 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9078
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #217 on: June 12, 2014, 10:49:15 AM »
Coach Cisar,

First sorry about the piss and vinegar, that was uncalled for.

Second, I understand how frustrating it can be to give someone a working solution and see them not implement it and then complain it doesn't work.

But not everyone out there has the time/inclination/dedication to go beyond the "8-2" season. For some of them, that's great already, and they are more than happy about the results AND the process. That's my whole point without the vinegar I guess.

I know a lot of good guys who don't get up in the morning thinking "how could I best destroy some young lives today by being a sub par football coach?".

They don't have the 3000 hours I put in the last 3 years. They actually can't begin to understand I put that kind of time. They barely manage to find enough time for the practices and games, and planning the practices somewhere/sometime else than on the field just before the practice is alien to them.

And no, that's not great coaching. I think we all are in agreement on that.

Luc

Luc

No worries at all, I go by Dave

The whole idea of a system is you DONT have to put 3,000 hours of time searching out and piecemealing something together on your own

As I stated earlier, if they are happy with 8-2, like many are, more power to them

Again, my frustration grew from the fact they have had the materials for at least 4-5 years and the answers were all right there for the taking. Instead they ran a bunch of stuff that wasn't designed very well- and wasn't mine.

I wish them well. From what I understand they score really high on all the metrics of retention- sportsmanship and wins.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9078
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #218 on: June 12, 2014, 11:00:26 AM »
Yes!

It's like when you get to the playoffs and some people start thinking "let's hope we don't run into that team first" or anything like that.

I think it doesn't matter who you face in first round if your goal is to win it all. Eventually, you will have to beat the other good teams, whether it's in the first or last week.

Luc

Luc

I like what you are saying, I used to think that way too. Like you, we just want to be the best and usually that means beating everyone.

When you play in a large league or play in tournaments- that isn't always the case though.
Lots of times it comes down to matchups.

In 2012 I had a very good 3-4 grade team- we mercy ruled everyone we played. We were easily in the top 35% athletically across the board and size wise on the line.  But we were really small in our backfield and LB spots. We were in a 41 team age bracket with only Division Winners making the playoffs. We drew the worst matchup in round 1. Good team with huge RBs- one which was freaky athletic and 10 lbs over the striped weight by end of season. He had my LBs by 30- 35 lbs
 ( 1/2 their body weight) They got 5 turnovers ( the big kid had 3 rips)  and we lost a chance to win it on the final drive.

The following year 2013 I had a very average 3-4 grade team. I thought we would be lucky to make the playoffs, let alone win a game. We only had 31 teams in the age bracket this time. We developed a little better than I had hoped. But in 2 of the 3 playoff games we drew the matchup that favored us the most. Had the team that lost in the Semi finals won their game- they would have most likely beaten us in the Super Bowl. However their matchup wasn't favorable and they lost- the team they lost to we matched up MUCH better with. So we went 12-0 and won it all- but IMO we got a little lucky with the matchups.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 11:18:48 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9078
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #219 on: June 12, 2014, 11:13:37 AM »
This thread isn't just about Cisar's ubsw, is it?  I have only faced one team, multiple times, that ran ubsw. They are a very good team, but struggled against us. We ran a 4-4 and had a d- line that was dominant. Our backers were sure tacklers and very athletic. This doesn't mean that a 4-4 is a sw killer or I would beat any sw team. Our dline was unblock able for all the teams we played. A year up from us is sw team that hasn't ever lost since they started at age 5. Their opponents may be very interested on how to stop this team. I am saying if my line dominates your line, your in trouble. Plus we all have different rules we play by. We are unlimited weight with striper rule. So I am going to break down my practice a little different. One persons system may be tweaked a bit to serve our needs. I tried SAB blocking last year and had horrible results. It doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means I coached it horribly. Coach Jack has great success and is 10 times the coach I am. I would love to here Coach Cisar's ways of beating the ubsw, rather than defend the ubsw. I am sure that would not be in his best interest, but I would be all ears( or eyes ). That would actually go for anyone, how do you line up and play ubsw. Do you do anything different? We really just practiced block destruction, taking on double teams, rip, swim moves, tackling( multiple ways), and take offs with speed and power.

Coach

Good post, I agree

Ive analyzed the 21 games we have lost over the last 18 seasons and tried to find commonality.

The common threads have NOT been a specific scheme- weve been beaten by 5-3 teams, 46 teams, Wide Tackle 6 teams etc
Weve also beaten a bunch of teams that ran those systems
In fact we play against Orgs that have multiple teams in every age group and we often times play several of their teams in the same year. Also remember that ALL my teams 3-8th grade run my stuff. So when an Org sees one of our teams, more or less, they've seen them all.

If ONE scheme was able to beat us, all of them would run it.
All these Orgs are pretty tight and practice all their teams together. They work together and want to win- film games etc

The commonality WASNT scheme

It was:
Ball Security- in 19 of those 21 losses we had more turnovers than the opps
In maybe 17-18 of those losses we had 2 more turnovers than the opps. Usually a strip, onside kick etc
We got very few 3 and outs on Defense. They didn't score a bunch- but they would get 1-3 first downs and keep us off the field.
Slowdown- maybe 1/3 of the teams went slow down mode
On defense they tackled really well and just played very sound defense. They didn't use any gimmicks or get too terribly far away from what they normally did
Few penalties, just well disciplined mistake free teams- Not totally mistake free, but they did very little to beat themselves.
MPRs- very few MPRs and where they did have them- they used them wisely. They didn't try putting them at safety or splitting them out and hoping we would cover them ( we don't)
Athletes- none of these teams were in the bottom 80% athletically
And of course controlling the LOS with great fundamental football like you  are able to do. Harder to quantify that with numbers, but yes all but a few of them were able to match up with us there.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 11:33:10 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Online mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #220 on: June 12, 2014, 11:43:36 AM »

The fellas Mike played have been running the system for several years
They attended a clinic about 4-5 years ago
They are supposed to be beyond the basic 6 base plays
They aren't a first year system team taking baby steps


Dave

Just to clarify before I jump back into the discussion.

The Org had been running your systems for a couple of years and attended your clinics.

The team we played in that film was a rookie team like us. First year teams in 2012.

Sorry for the confusion. If I posted otherwise somewhere I was mistaken.
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline belebuch

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 6039
  • Total likes: 81
  • Coaching: 6 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Other
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #221 on: June 12, 2014, 11:53:17 AM »
The yr we came in 3rd place was one of those circumstances where you had 3 teams that gave one of the other matchup problems. We couldve beat the champs but we couldnt beat the team that beat us that played them in the championship. After the season i had a parent tell me too bad we didnt play the other team instead. We wouldve been champs. I looked at him and said true, but being the champs means you beat everyone when you had to and we couldnt get that done.

We beat the eventual champs during the season like 33-8, their first loss since they joined our org and one of that staffs worst losses in memory. My AC called me from the parking lot saying how he overheard them on their phone telling the team prez how bad we beat em and how we were pulling EVERYBODY in front of our runners Lol

They were a big power team who bullied the team who beat us but couldnt match our speed on the edge

Offline Dimson

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7541
  • Total likes: 504
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Killer Bee
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #222 on: June 12, 2014, 11:57:36 AM »
There's a cheesesteak/hoagie place in Chicago called "Philly's Best" that doesn't have provolone.   At least they didn't ten years ago, which is when I stopped going because they didn't have provolone.
I thought they used cheese wiz in Philly?

Offline PSLCOACHROB

  • Administrator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 12511
  • Total likes: 2440
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Retired
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #223 on: June 12, 2014, 11:59:20 AM »
I thought they used cheese wiz in Philly?
Two schools of thought on a Philly steak. The wrong school is the cheese wiz school.

Offline HCScott

  • Copper
  • Posts: 363
  • Total likes: 38
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #224 on: June 12, 2014, 12:20:59 PM »
Disclaimer:
- Coach Cisar I have said many times that I recommend your book for any youth coach who doesn't know where to start and doesn't have much money or time to invest because as far as I know, it's the best $30 (or whatever amount it is) a youth coach could invest to get a complete solution to a particularly hairy problem, ie, having to coach a bunch of kids when you have no idea of where to start.
- I have not see your more advanced material, so I don't have an opinion on it.

Now this being said, this post is not a coach to coach post (we are not in the same league, you are way up there, and I am very clearly way down here), but as a man to man post, or maybe a customer review post, who knows.

What Mike and I did mention was that we both have "your book" (singular, not plural) and that nowhere in it could we find that 14 play.

At that point I don't believe you had mentioned that it was in the more advance material, and we didn't either. When someone refers to "your book", I would expect that unless stated otherwise, that someone is talking about "Winning Youth Football - A Step by Step Plan", the base of your system. If not, I would expect that the book being referred to is named so that people know what is being talked about, but then, maybe that's just me, if I made wrong assumption, I'm sorry I did, but I still believe it would help in discussions not to refer to 303 or any other advanced material as "the book".

Also, while I'm at it, it sorts of pisses me off to see in multiple threads coaches who buy your material being characterized as not applying tags and finishing the season 8-2 and losing in the second round of the playoffs as not following the recipe, or being clueless (if not in the exact words, in the tone for sure) and generally making you or your system look bad.

For many youth coaches out there, and without having access to any of your sales data, I would expect for a vast part of your paying customers, investing just in your first general book, achieving 60% of what you propose, having a winning season and actually going to the playoffs is a MAJOR ACHIEVEMENTS!

They just proved the point of your whole approach. Now because they did not buy the 303 or whatever advanced material (Coach, they might not even install 80% of that first book -- EVER -- and be very successful coaches during their glorified 3 years career!) somehow they aren't using your material?

Flash news: Once they bought the thing, it's THEIRS and they can implement it as they see fit. Now if they can't call it Coach Cisar's because they don't follow the book to the letter, maybe you should consider putting a disclaimer at the beginning of the book about that.

PS: I have used ideas and drills from your book a few weeks ago, and actually pointed the provenance out to the Coaches in my org. I will make sure not to do that again next time since I don't install the whole thing and wouldn't want anybody to think that what we do this year could possibly cast a bad light on you or your material.

A paying customer.

If you knew how many coaches that just can't follow directions that I have had to deal with in just two years. Even when they watch my team consistently outplay bigger, faster more athletic teams time and again. They just have to do their own thing in the end. They don't get the simple but EXTREMELY important items such as NO SPLITS because that's not what they did in HS. Then they complain that the system doesn't work for them! I know one coach that consistently argues with me that his 2 yard splits are better because he thinks he spreads the defense but also allows penetration into his backfield at an alarming rate. They take some of the package but they are always smarter then everybody else. Some are just unable to take direction from other more experienced coaches.
 
I do believe we all do something here or there that puts our own stamp on our teams no matter how closely we are following the system. Dave told me one time, "if it works for you, do it!"

If you thought you could run the DCSW and the entire system by just buying "the BOOK" you are wrong. Get all the materials. Study the 303 even if you aren't ready to run it. You will find a few things you can install later in the season when the basics are perfect. Buck 14 trap and Buck 23 power should be one of those along with 24 ISO. Learn the tags and adjustments a couple at a time and use them.
Get installing the SW, 303 and the defensive video and the OL video, these are priceless. I recommend all the others too. You don't need all the season videos but the rest are a must IMO.

And you didn't even see Dave lips move, LOL!
"The quarterback must go down and he must go down hard"