Author Topic: Defending the UBSW Offense  (Read 158449 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #255 on: June 12, 2014, 07:24:40 PM »
I think that 29 would get wedged to death. Tell me more.

H

Oh it would....see post #87
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

  • Administrator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 12511
  • Total likes: 2440
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Retired
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #256 on: June 12, 2014, 07:30:33 PM »
It is like the amoeba. We saw it once on the first play of the game. We had never talked about it before and I just said to my header "wedge". They got out of that quickly. Without wedge I imagine the 29 would confuse the heck out of a rules blocking team. TKO would crush it also I believe. But heck, every defense has it's weaknesses.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #257 on: June 12, 2014, 07:46:48 PM »
Disclaimer:
- Coach Cisar I have said many times that I recommend your book for any youth coach who doesn't know where to start and doesn't have much money or time to invest because as far as I know, it's the best $30 (or whatever amount it is) a youth coach could invest to get a complete solution to a particularly hairy problem, ie, having to coach a bunch of kids when you have no idea of where to start.
- I have not see your more advanced material, so I don't have an opinion on it.

Now this being said, this post is not a coach to coach post (we are not in the same league, you are way up there, and I am very clearly way down here), but as a man to man post, or maybe a customer review post, who knows.

What Mike and I did mention was that we both have "your book" (singular, not plural) and that nowhere in it could we find that 14 play.

At that point I don't believe you had mentioned that it was in the more advance material, and we didn't either. When someone refers to "your book", I would expect that unless stated otherwise, that someone is talking about "Winning Youth Football - A Step by Step Plan", the base of your system. If not, I would expect that the book being referred to is named so that people know what is being talked about, but then, maybe that's just me, if I made wrong assumption, I'm sorry I did, but I still believe it would help in discussions not to refer to 303 or any other advanced material as "the book".

Also, while I'm at it, it sorts of pisses me off to see in multiple threads coaches who buy your material being characterized as not applying tags and finishing the season 8-2 and losing in the second round of the playoffs as not following the recipe, or being clueless (if not in the exact words, in the tone for sure) and generally making you or your system look bad.

For many youth coaches out there, and without having access to any of your sales data, I would expect for a vast part of your paying customers, investing just in your first general book, achieving 60% of what you propose, having a winning season and actually going to the playoffs is a MAJOR ACHIEVEMENTS!

They just proved the point of your whole approach. Now because they did not buy the 303 or whatever advanced material (Coach, they might not even install 80% of that first book -- EVER -- and be very successful coaches during their glorified 3 years career!) somehow they aren't using your material?

Flash news: Once they bought the thing, it's THEIRS and they can implement it as they see fit. Now if they can't call it Coach Cisar's because they don't follow the book to the letter, maybe you should consider putting a disclaimer at the beginning of the book about that.

PS: I have used ideas and drills from your book a few weeks ago, and actually pointed the provenance out to the Coaches in my org. I will make sure not to do that again next time since I don't install the whole thing and wouldn't want anybody to think that what we do this year could possibly cast a bad light on you or your material.

A paying customer.

Luc

Catching up on this discussion.

I agree with some of your points here. I really hadn't paid that much attention to the fact that there was an advanced version so when someone would ask about a tag or a play and said they couldn't find it in the book but will keep looking....well...neither could I. I thought my WYF book was simply outdated. No biggie. This Thread now helps explains my own confusion. I thought Dave was holding out on us....not the case at all.  :P

As far as going 8-2 and 12-0 being a big deal. Well it is. Im kinda racking my brain here a bit but if I had to make an educated guess I'd have to say in 27 seasons of youth ball and 8 seasons of semi pro ball and 3 season of Freshman HS ball...maybe 6 undefeated seasons?...3 for sure at the semi pro level and 0 at the HS level so maybe 3 or 4 at the youth level sounds about right or one every 9 years ! ? !

Lots of one loss seasons...a plethora of 2 and 3 loss seasons...one 0-8 season...everything in-between. 

So the difference between 8-2 and 12-0 for me is some luck and a few miracles along the way. These are kids we are talking about here and kids will ruin the best laid plans. Has ZERO to do with a system...coaching...players...what I ate for dinner...our mascot...Mojo...or the Man in the Moon. None of that stuff. That is where I differ from Dave's line of thinking....and a few others.

When I tuned into Coach Potters Clinic he listed his accomplishments the first 10 years he coached youth ball. I was floored. He is...The Miracle Man.  :)

Dave sells systems for a living. I get that. So I also understand why he is the way he is when he is defending his business. I have always said this...if a Coach puts together a package and it is high quality ( that's is a pretty long list anymore) and wants to sell it to others in an attempt so speed up any learning curves for the masses....HAVE AT IT !

I expected some "moments" in this Thread but am happy with the ebbs and flow of the discussion. It hasn't been nasty with lots of stuff here we can all learn from.
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9078
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #258 on: June 12, 2014, 07:52:26 PM »
Dave,
   I know you are a huge NU fan so I guess you are not a big Wilkinson fan. But you kinda get at what I am asking. Was it scheme or was it that OU just had better players? I ask because I don't know not to be a smart ass. I imagine, as is always the case, it was both.
   Also, did the sw fade because of the wt6 or because of the success of the T? Again, asking because I don't know. Probably a little of both. I am sure that eventually the great sw minds would of figured out the wt6 but when the T and wishbone came along what was the point. In today's game somebody will figure out the spread option stuff and all the pass happy offenses will start to go back to pounding the ball. It is already happening. Just look at Seattle.

Rob

I don't know
I didn't start being an NU fan until 1969 and then started attending every home game in 1970

He set some amazing records at OU, but wasn't able to replicate it later

Wilkinson benefited from cheating on the recruiting trail and was caught twice by the NCAA:
http://www.barkingcarnival.com/2008/06/16/the-history-of-college-football-recruiting-cheating-part-5

That may have aided his success

I have a friend who played 9 years in the NFL
He has coached college DI and HS football
He said the NFL is a "copy cat" league and once something gets a toe hold, everyone copys them 2 weeks later

Football runs in cycles
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:06:31 PM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #259 on: June 12, 2014, 08:00:13 PM »
It is like the amoeba. We saw it once on the first play of the game. We had never talked about it before and I just said to my header "wedge". They got out of that quickly. Without wedge I imagine the 29 would confuse the heck out of a rules blocking team. TKO would crush it also I believe. But heck, every defense has it's weaknesses.

R

Perfect analogy and why we did it. It would either get crushed forcing us back to our normal D or blow the opponents mind. The 29 almost ended up almost costing them a trip to the Championship.

We ran the DW that season and the 5 wide Empty. We lost 18-13. Late in the 4th we have the ball 4th and goal on the 2. Wedge XX. We score ! Flag. Assisting the runner. Good call. I saw it too. 4th a goal from the 7 and we couldn't punch it in.

I will never forget that game.
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline davecisar

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9078
  • Total likes: 854
    • Winning Youth Football Coaching Site
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Wide Tackle 6
  • Offense: Single Wing
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #260 on: June 12, 2014, 08:02:27 PM »
Luc

Catching up on this discussion.

I agree with some of your points here. I really hadn't paid that much attention to the fact that there was an advanced version so when someone would ask about a tag or a play and said they couldn't find it in the book but will keep looking....well...neither could I. I thought my WYF book was simply outdated. No biggie. This Thread now helps explains my own confusion. I thought Dave was holding out on us....not the case at all.  :P

As far as going 8-2 and 12-0 being a big deal. Well it is. Im kinda racking my brain here a bit but if I had to make an educated guess I'd have to say in 27 seasons of youth ball and 8 seasons of semi pro ball and 3 season of Freshman HS ball...maybe 6 undefeated seasons?...3 for sure at the semi pro level and 0 at the HS level so maybe 3 or 4 at the youth level sounds about right or one every 9 years ! ? !

Lots of one loss seasons...a plethora of 2 and 3 loss seasons...one 0-8 season...everything in-between. 

So the difference between 8-2 and 12-0 for me is some luck and a few miracles along the way. These are kids we are talking about here and kids will ruin the best laid plans. Has ZERO to do with a system...coaching...players...what I ate for dinner...our mascot...Mojo...or the Man in the Moon. None of that stuff. That is where I differ from Dave's line of thinking....and a few others.



Mike

You didn't read my post on this thread about matchups

When you play in huge leagues or tournaments- matchups matter

THis year- age 8-9. pretty average team. In 31 team age bracket, we matched up really well with 2 of the 3 teams we played in playoffs. Had the other team in the semi-final bracket won, we were probably a loser in the Super Bowl. They simply outclassed us in an area we were vulnerable. Their opponent wasn't built the same way and we were able to offset their advantages with some tech/scheme and playcalling- something we wouldn't have been able to effectively do to the team they beat. With 25 man squads and legit MPRs- you do what you can do.

I feel I can ALWAYS get to .500+ and 7-8 wins, only 1 losing season in 18 running this stuff- 4 different leagues. However getting to 12-0 can take a little bit of "luck" sometimes, totally admit that. Luck doesn't get you from 2-8 to 8-2, but luck can get you from 8-2 or 9-1 to 12-0.  Have had a number of 11-1 or 10-1 seasons where we had a heartbreaking bad break happen- man do I have some stories about those games  ;D  it's part of the game we do our very best to minimize. Ive had 5 undefeated seasons out of 18, but 3 of my top 6 teams were 1 loss teams.  :'(
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:16:04 PM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline PSLCOACHROB

  • Administrator
  • Diamond
  • Posts: 12511
  • Total likes: 2440
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Retired
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #261 on: June 12, 2014, 08:11:31 PM »
Mike,
   I have had 2 undefeated seasons and in Pop Warner that means 17-0 or about that. I can honestly say that in all of our runs to Disney we had to have things go our way at some point. It is crazy what can throw a youth team off. We made it to the national finals in 2010 and lost to a fantastic team from Baltimore. But along the way to get there we had to beat 2 teams that we had no real business beating. The chips fell into our laps and viola, there we were. Our 09 team was different. They were special. Our staff was special. Our parents were special. It was a perfect storm and that will never happen again. No one came close to us. We mercied everybody we played on the way to a 16-0 NC season. But in reality, the amount of luck involved to get those kids on the same team, with those parents, with that incredible staff, all together at the same time was, in a large part, was luck. Luck always plays into success. Of course you need all the other stuff to go along with it but without some amount of luck you will always fall at least a little short.

Offline MHcoach

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7753
  • Total likes: 1847
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #262 on: June 12, 2014, 09:09:33 PM »
Mike

I have been doing this a long time, I have also been fortunate enough to coach some pretty good football players. When I started coaching, our team had a 64 game win streak; followed by a 56 game win streak. I know there were many times we didn't have near the talent of some of opponents.

In Mint Hill we went 55-1 over 4 years, with 3 NC's.

My last 2 regular seasons have been 10-0 here in Florida at the HS level.

So I guess I have a pretty idea of what it takes to get there. My point being, more important then scheme is the way you coach players. Good coaches consistently produce good teams, those that can't ever make it over the hump are failing somewhere. I know I have learned invaluable lessons from every loss. I am not saying some one who goes 8-2 can't go 12-0, rather they need to evaluate where they fell short.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #263 on: June 12, 2014, 09:14:49 PM »
Luck matters....even a miracle when it come to the Perfect Season.

Here is the scenario.

Normal Formation


X...........................T...G...C...G...T..........................Y
.......................................Q
................................................................Z
.......................................F

......................................S

The Brown Special...LOT's last name is Brown. Its the play call and the Formation name.

Play design....Play action pass to the LOT running a Shallow Drag UNDERNEATH Z running a Post. X runs a Dig. Backfield action is stretch lead to the LOT who is vacating so S and F can help block if need be. We ran this play all season ONCE per game with great results.



.............................T...G...C...G...T...Y.......Z
X.....................................Q

.......................................F

......................................S


Situation...Conference Championship Game between two undefeated Teams. Late in the 4th Q both O's have stalled and the D's have taken over. We are down 28-26....its 4th and 9 on about their 30 so I call the Brown Special.

So what happens....F goes the wrong way...S does NOTHING after his play action...Y suddenly cant block to save his life....Z doesn't run his clearing route and decides to block instead...X runs a go route?

Our QB who is a pure passer only and so slow that he reminded me of Dan Marino now has to roll out to avoid pressure because his buddies are suddenly a bunch of Stoooges... and throws on the run into perfect double coverage to an OFFENSIVE TACKLE who does not catch it cleanly....but scores a TD.

Luck?...a Miracle?...Mahonz living on the edge again? It was the difference between going 9-1 with no big shiny trophy to 11-0 and the Perfect Season. One play executed like a bunch of Kindergartners.

Dang Kids.  :P

http://youtu.be/zBMEBPmkkG8
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #264 on: June 12, 2014, 10:24:14 PM »
Mike

I have been doing this a long time, I have also been fortunate enough to coach some pretty good football players. When I started coaching, our team had a 64 game win streak; followed by a 56 game win streak. I know there were many times we didn't have near the talent of some of opponents.

In Mint Hill we went 55-1 over 4 years, with 3 NC's.

My last 2 regular seasons have been 10-0 here in Florida at the HS level.

So I guess I have a pretty idea of what it takes to get there. My point being, more important then scheme is the way you coach players. Good coaches consistently produce good teams, those that can't ever make it over the hump are failing somewhere. I know I have learned invaluable lessons from every loss. I am not saying some one who goes 8-2 can't go 12-0, rather they need to evaluate where they fell short.

Joe

Joe

When I joined the semi pros as a Positions Coach they were at about #40 in a row. We made it to #64 in a row my second season and lost the last Regular Season game by a field goal.

I didn't really get it at the time but all of the Veterans and Coaches got on their hands and knees and kissed the turf afterwards.

The pressure wasn't worth it anymore. We went on to win the Championship....again....and again....and again....and again. At the semi pro level...winning attracts talent and talent wins. 

I coached a youth team that got to 30 something in a row...33 I think? It escapes me right now.  I had lost the Team year 3. They thought they were invincible.  A loss every now and then does build character and is humbling. As long as that loss doesn't end your Season....no harm done.  :)

But I get what you are saying...and Dave....and others.

What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #265 on: June 12, 2014, 10:25:17 PM »
Mike

You didn't read my post on this thread about matchups

When you play in huge leagues or tournaments- matchups matter

THis year- age 8-9. pretty average team. In 31 team age bracket, we matched up really well with 2 of the 3 teams we played in playoffs. Had the other team in the semi-final bracket won, we were probably a loser in the Super Bowl. They simply outclassed us in an area we were vulnerable. Their opponent wasn't built the same way and we were able to offset their advantages with some tech/scheme and playcalling- something we wouldn't have been able to effectively do to the team they beat. With 25 man squads and legit MPRs- you do what you can do.

I feel I can ALWAYS get to .500+ and 7-8 wins, only 1 losing season in 18 running this stuff- 4 different leagues. However getting to 12-0 can take a little bit of "luck" sometimes, totally admit that. Luck doesn't get you from 2-8 to 8-2, but luck can get you from 8-2 or 9-1 to 12-0.  Have had a number of 11-1 or 10-1 seasons where we had a heartbreaking bad break happen- man do I have some stories about those games  ;D  it's part of the game we do our very best to minimize. Ive had 5 undefeated seasons out of 18, but 3 of my top 6 teams were 1 loss teams.  :'(

Dave

Help ! What post #? This Thread is giant now.
What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline Luc

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1471
  • Total likes: 5
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Split
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #266 on: June 12, 2014, 10:39:10 PM »
Dave
Help ! What post #? This Thread is giant now.
I believe it was #218 (http://www.dumcoach.com/general-defense-discussion/defending-the-ubsw-offense/msg271189/#msg271189)

And while I like my 'up the highway' stand, I do all kind of crazy stats and analysis all season long trying to find the right match up, so who am I kidding  ::)

Luc
To be good you have to work hard. To be better, you have to work harder. To be great, you have to keep working when the good ones stop.

Offline Luc

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1471
  • Total likes: 5
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Split
  • Offense: One Back
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #267 on: June 12, 2014, 10:48:58 PM »
Coach

Thanks, glad it helped
I would recommend you reach out to Lawrence Smith- with the Graham Grizzlies in Chilliwack BC (Vancouver)
They won a Provincial Championship with my system 14-1 - the same year they came to play us in Lincoln. Their only loss was to us

In Coach Smiths first year at the High SChool (first year of football there) they won a Provincial Championship
They lost their first 2-3 games running spread, he fired the OC went SW and won out

Really enjoyed playing against them
I cliniced them in Seattle and then in Chilliwack BC
Thanks, I'll see if I can hook up. Always interested to learn more.

Luc
To be good you have to work hard. To be better, you have to work harder. To be great, you have to keep working when the good ones stop.

Offline Pearls of Wisdom

  • Gold
  • Posts: 4611
  • Total likes: 73
  • Read Only Account. Please no PM's or Emails
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Undecided
  • Offense: Undecided
  • Title: Retired
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #268 on: June 12, 2014, 10:55:47 PM »
Bill,
   In case you forgot, Coach Wilkinson beat just about everybody and every thing like a red headed step child.  ;)
PS I know you didn't forget and add #68 to your excuses list -  "we are not coached by Bud Wilkinson".
PSS Serious question here. I know you firmly believe in the old adage that players win games not schemes. Could it be that some of those Wilkinson teams just had better players? Not trying to stir the pot here just an honest curiosity.

#69 on my "ALIBI LIST" = "I'm being coached by a FEW "coaches" on dumcoach who really are NOT really coaches, and don't have a CLUE what they are talking about"!  Y'all can keep talking this "B.S." on here for 10 years & after 268 posts I haven't seen one good idea on defending the UBSW YET!

As you know = I have ALWAYS said that "it's the Jimmys & Joes, NOT the X's & O's"!  STILL no excuse NOT to emulate the wisdom of Bob Neyland, Bud Wilkinson, & Bear Bryant = ALL of whom beat the shitski out of the UBSW in the ERA of the UBSW (& their thinking was what ran the UBSW out of business in the mid-1940's)!  They had both the TALENT AND THE KNOW HOW (if you don't have one, it's no excuse not to seek the other)!

Sports Illustrated picked Bryant Head Coach of the "All Twentieth Century Team", & Neyland his "Defensive Coordinator".   After 18-19 pages of posts by "coaches" HERE on the subject, I don't believe I have seen ANYTHING here that even remotely APPROACHES what they taught.  Further study (not a bunch of "B.S.") HIGHLY recommended.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 09:16:12 AM by billmountjoy »
My Contact Info: Coach Bill Mountjoy phone: 804-716-7038 EST /  Email: butzadams@hotmail.com

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #269 on: June 12, 2014, 11:08:23 PM »


In 2012 I had a very good 3-4 grade team- we mercy ruled everyone we played. We were easily in the top 35% athletically across the board and size wise on the line.  But we were really small in our backfield and LB spots. We were in a 41 team age bracket with only Division Winners making the playoffs. We drew the worst matchup in round 1. Good team with huge RBs- one which was freaky athletic and 10 lbs over the striped weight by end of season. He had my LBs by 30- 35 lbs
 ( 1/2 their body weight) They got 5 turnovers ( the big kid had 3 rips)  and we lost a chance to win it on the final drive.
matchups.

Dave

So Im confused. Wouldn't you have most likely have met this Team anyway after round one had you both won vs a different first round opponent?

I understand match-ups ala small DB's vs a Manimal WR or a sweep til they weep team vs a pair of really good edge defenders. Is that what you are saying? Still if you are going to win it all then how do you avoid the poor match-ups for your team?...or draw the better one?  Luck?
What is beautiful, lives forever.