Author Topic: Defending the UBSW Offense  (Read 158363 times)

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Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #330 on: June 14, 2014, 02:59:49 PM »
BIll,
   That may of been the most important post you have ever made. Unfortunately 99.99% of youth coaches will never read it and will never have a clue. They will just keep doing the same dumb bs over and over again and blame their players. Youth footballs limitations are 100% because of the coaches.
   Joe, I need that Miami tackling circuit btw. Up for some company?  :P

Thank you!  If you ever in Va., feel free to stop by.  I have great respect for you (& some OTHERS on the site).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 03:01:51 PM by billmountjoy »
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Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #331 on: June 14, 2014, 03:05:52 PM »
I appreciate that Bill and if I am ever up that way I will certainly stop by. Luckily I do have some great football coaches that I mentor from locally. Joe is just 2 hours away and a very experienced and knowledgeable local hs coach(my good buddy Stu) is a very good friend of mine. I am over at Stu's place picking his brain a bunch. My header(who is pretty darn sharp himself) is a hs dc and is exposed to some very good football minds. My point is that youth coaches need to branch out and meet the local hs coaches. Most will be absolutely thrilled to mentor you when they have the time. Even if it just over a few beers once a week.

Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #332 on: June 14, 2014, 04:25:21 PM »
Rob

Of course I am up for a visit. I have a new rib recipe I would love for you to try. Smoking a batch right now, I think Jeff wants to come by too. Just say the word.

CMJ

Again I agree, this season is my 39th, each year I realize I know less & less. Yet I think my teams learn more & more. Learning to prepare can often be one the most difficult thing for a young coach to do. This goes beyond scheme, it goes into what makes a team take that next step.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #333 on: June 14, 2014, 04:30:51 PM »
Rob

Of course I am up for a visit. I have a new rib recipe I would love for you to try. Smoking a batch right now, I think Jeff wants to come by too. Just say the word.

CMJ

Again I agree, this season is my 39th, each year I realize I know less & less. Yet I think my teams learn more & more. Learning to prepare can often be one the most difficult thing for a young coach to do. This goes beyond scheme, it goes into what makes a team take that next step.

Joe

Joe:

It goes WAY beyond scheme!  Paul Brown & Ara Parseghian ( a PB pupil) ALWAYS said:

1.  MORALE (CONTROLS the "WHO", ""HOW". & "WHAT")
2.  PERSONNEL  ("WHO")
3.  FUNDAMENTALS ("HOW")
4.  SCHEME  ("WHAT")
NOTE:  IF you have #1 & #2 = you can win WITH ANY "scheme"!

CMJ
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 04:32:26 PM by billmountjoy »
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Offline Jburk

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #334 on: June 14, 2014, 04:35:22 PM »
J

I consider every well coached O a riddle. The UBSW being the worst....or the best depending on which sideline you are standing on.  :)

I guess you'd probably be right about every well coached O being a riddle. The UBSW had definitely made a very legitimate and successful reappearance in the game of football (especially at the youth level thanks to coach Cisar), no denying that fact. Hell, I was watching a clip just today, of Florida running basically an UBSW in a 3rd and 1 situation.

There's not an offense out there that doesn't have it's pro's and it's con's, and despite some opinions, I truly believe that some offenses are more suitable than others w/r/t youth teams (and their coaches). It's going to be a HELLUVA lot easier to teach and run the UBSW to a small team of 8/9 year olds, than it would be to teach and run a four wide spread offense or flexbone triple option for instance. Am I right? I think that's just being realistic.
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Offline Jburk

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #335 on: June 14, 2014, 04:42:05 PM »
This is like Groundhog Day.

Literally made me laugh out loud.  ;D
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Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #336 on: June 14, 2014, 04:44:57 PM »
I guess you'd probably be right about every well coached O being a riddle. The UBSW had definitely made a very legitimate and successful reappearance in the game of football (especially at the youth level thanks to coach Cisar), no denying that fact. Hell, I was watching a clip just today, of Florida running basically an UBSW in a 3rd and 1 situation.

There's not an offense out there that doesn't have it's pro's and it's con's, and despite some opinions, I truly believe that some offenses are more suitable than others w/r/t youth teams (and their coaches). It's going to be a HELLUVA lot easier to teach and run the UBSW to a small team of 8/9 year olds, than it would be to teach and run a four wide spread offense or flexbone triple option for instance. Am I right? I think that's just being realistic.


I played IN the UBSW (FB & TE) in 1952, and AGAINST it in 1953, 54, 55, & 56 (as a DE).  We TRIED teaching the UBSW with 8 year olds in 1959 before going to the POWER-I.  Used it in HS in 1962 & 1963 also (before regaining our "sense" & going to the Pro-Style of Sid Gillman, Vince Lombardi, etc).  What all that EXPERIENCE taught me was the "POWER-I" and "PRO-STYLE" was a LOT simpler to teach, & much more effective for us!

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, and the lesson AFTERWARDS"!

****************************************************************************************

PS:  In watching UBSW on youtube & DVD (much of it from members of this site) = the following things "jump out at me" as WEAKNESSES (UBSW).  There MAY be UBSW coaches who might benefit from reading this (unless they have "closed minds").  Every coach who abandoned the UBSW in the 1940's spoke (& wrote) of these: (most of the UBSW coaches on this site will "poo-poo" these, but hell, who cares if ostriches bury their head in the sand?).

1.  You time the plays with a calendar rather than a stop watch.  Bob Neyland (winningest SW coach of all times) preferred the balanced line SW BECAUSE the off-tackle play towards the WB  hit so much QUICKER (& you had more power on off-tackle plays away).  See #2:

2.   The teams of members on this site make direct snaps to the TB & he has to sit & WAIT on the damned ball (slows the play down).  ALL the great SW coaches (on EVERY LEVEL) I ever knew made LEAD snaps to the TB (snapping the ball at the FB's original align so the TB could take it on the MOVE).  ATTACHED below (#2) is what Pop Warner said (in 1912) about "LEAD SNAPS").  "Youth" centers CAN be taught to snap it to where the FB aligned (he does this on FB plays anyway).

3.   If you pull the long-side Guard (next to the center) it causes BIG penetration over his position.  Princeton & Ken Keuffel quit doing this (the Michigan staff got FIRED in the early 1950's & this was one factor cause they couldn't run O.T. anymore).  I had 2 kids to PLAY for Princeton (late 50's & early 60's), & Princeton All-Time Great - Dick Kazmaier - lived in Richmond.  They ALL alluded to this.  I have Keuffel's (& Princeton's) film, & have been a guest in his home, & watched him play.  I doubt if ANYONE living (next to Ed Racely) knows a FRACTION of SW ball like the late Ken Keuffel did).   In 1945 almost every SW coach who dropped the offense for the Tight-T & Split-T alluded to this fact).  Leahy at ND, & Blaik at Army, wrote (& spoke of this).

4.  Center is not 100% a blocker (with his head between his knees).   In 1945 almost every SW coach who dropped the offense for the Tight-T & Split-T alluded to this fact as a MAJOR CONCERN).  Leahy at ND, & Blaik at Army, wrote (& spoke of this)

5.  "A primary weakness of the UBSW is that the weakside attack tends to be just that - WEAK".  Quote from Fritz Crisler whose 1947 Michigan team was the most TALENTED UBSW team I ever saw (I have their film).

6.  Harder to teach than most other offenses.  In 1945 almost every SW coach who dropped the offense for the Tight-T & Split-T alluded to this fact).  Leahy at ND, & Blaik at Army, wrote (& spoke of this).

7.  WHY was there a "mass exodus" from the UBSW (on ALL levels) beginning around 1945 (the reasons above were FACTORS)?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 04:46:43 PM by billmountjoy »
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Offline Jburk

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #337 on: June 14, 2014, 04:46:09 PM »
I played IN the UBSW (FB & TE) in 1952, and AGAINST it in 1953, 54, 55, & 56 (as a DE).  We TRIED teaching the UBSW with 8 year olds in 1959 before going to the POWER-I.  What that EXPERIENCE taught me was the "POWER-I" was a LOT simpler to teach, & much more effective for us!

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, and the lesson AFTERWARDS"!

Very interesting, and I like that quote. Just seems to me, that football is like fighting and the martial arts; everything old is new again.

What is it about the UBSW in your opinion that made it a harder scheme to teach than the Power I? Thanks in advance, coach.
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Offline Jburk

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #338 on: June 14, 2014, 04:49:32 PM »
CMJ, nevermind, I just seen your post specific to certain aspects of UBSW.

By the way, I bought Ken Keuffel's book on the UBSW, and it's been terrific. ( I actually own both of his SW books, the older and the newer) There's some notable differences in his SW versus Dave Cisar's for instance.
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Offline Jburk

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #339 on: June 14, 2014, 04:55:27 PM »
This is the video I was talking about w/r/t Florida running an UBSW formation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbPOdWIx_yc
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Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #340 on: June 14, 2014, 04:56:59 PM »
Very interesting, and I like that quote. Just seems to me, that football is like fighting and the martial arts; everything old is new again.

What is it about the UBSW in your opinion that made it a harder scheme to teach than the Power I? Thanks in advance, coach.

You evidently DIDN'T read my list of "disadvantages" from my last post.  That (in major part) is the answer to the question you posed.

When (in my playing days) we DROPPED the UBSW for the Oklahoma Split-T = we ran the SAME THREE plays Bud Wilkinson ran to win 47 straight games (& 3-4 National titles).  I only had to learn THREE plays (HB straight-handoff, 2-way option, FB Counter), & on ALL them I only had to "DRIVE BLOCK BLOCK #3" (& no one EVER had to pull, make direct snaps. etc.).  Bud always said "the beauty of the Split-T was it's limited number of plays).

In the UBSW we had all KINDS of plays (strong-side & weak-side) & a TON of techniques to learn (direct-snaps, pulling, double teams, traps, ETC-ETC-ETC).
 
After the switch to an easier offense we became MUCH BETTER (won more games & scored more points).


BELIEVE I have made myself clear.  If you have any further questions feel free to PHONE me at 804-716-7038.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 04:59:36 PM by billmountjoy »
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #341 on: June 14, 2014, 04:58:23 PM »

MIKE:  What, are you doubting my word?  I never have put ANYTHING on youtube.  I have a TON of film (I have a few coaches I met online coming here in July to SEE them).  Can send it to you for $75 each (to convert 800' of 16MM to DVD) or $25 (to convert VHS to DVD).  $5 postage will do it (no charge for my time involved).  How many would you like?

In your coaching career - did anyone ever explain to you that all football (by AGE) is "RELATIVE" (size, speed, psychological make-up)?  I have found this to be 100% true in a coaching career that dates back to 1959).  What the hell does using an unbalanced line have to do with coaching "youth" (if that guaranteed success why doesn't all "kiddie" coaches use it)?  That is just sheer NONSENSE!

You use the term "youth" as a "crutch" (this is getting "old").  I coached youth football too (kids still wore socks, jock straps, pants, jersey,  helmets, mouth pieces. shoulder pads, cleats; = kids still had to block & tackle; ETC).  I fail to see where you gain ANYTHING being "unbalanced" (even if the "kiddies" are 3).  1960 I coached 8-9 age group.  1961 I coached 10 year olds (6th grade), & 11 year olds (7th grade).  In 1962-63 I coached HS ball, BUT, also had a 7th grade team that practiced in the evenings.  We saw PLENTY of UBSW, UBDW, & UB/Winged-T, & UB/DW-T.  None gave us as much problem as BALANCED lines (that's why 99% of teams use balanced lines).  I will post a picture of my 1961/10 & 1961/11 year olds (that's me behind the "A" team) at bottom = ATTACHMENT #1).

PS:  In watching UBSW on youtube & DVD (much of it from members of this site) = the following things "jump out at me" as WEAKNESSES (UBSW).  There MAY be UBSW coaches who might benefit from reading this (unless they have "closed minds").  Every coach who abandoned the UBSW in the 1940's spoke (& wrote) of these: (most of the UBSW coaches on this site will "poo-poo" these, but hell, who cares if ostriches bury their head in the sand?).

1.  You time the plays with a calendar rather than a stop watch.  Bob Neyland (winningest SW coach of all times) preferred the balanced line SW BECAUSE the off-tackle play towards the WB  hit so much QUICKER (& you had more power on off-tackle plays away).  See #2:

2.   The teams of members on this site make direct snaps to the TB & he has to sit & WAIT on the damned ball (slows the play down).  ALL the great SW coaches (on EVERY LEVEL) I ever knew made LEAD snaps to the TB (snapping the ball at the FB's original align so the TB could take it on the MOVE).  ATTACHED below (#2) is what Pop Warner said (in 1912) about "LEAD SNAPS").  "Youth" centers CAN be taught to snap it to where the FB aligned (he does this on FB plays anyway). 

3.   If you pull the long-side Guard (next to the center) it causes BIG penetration over his position.  Princeton & Ken Keuffel quit doing this (the Michigan staff got FIRED in the early 1950's & this was one factor cause they couldn't run O.T. anymore).  I had 2 kids to PLAY for Princeton (late 50's & early 60's), & Princeton All-Time Great - Dick Kazmaier - lived in Richmond.  They ALL alluded to this.  I have Keuffel's (& Princeton's) film, & have been a guest in his home, & watched him play.  I doubt if ANYONE living (next to Ed Racely) knows a FRACTION of SW ball like the late Ken Keuffel did).   In 1945 almost every SW coach who dropped the offense for the Tight-T & Split-T alluded to this fact).  Leahy at ND, & Blaik at Army, wrote (& spoke of this).

4.  Center is not 100% a blocker (with his head between his knees).   In 1945 almost every SW coach who dropped the offense for the Tight-T & Split-T alluded to this fact as a MAJOR CONCERN).  Leahy at ND, & Blaik at Army, wrote (& spoke of this)

5.  "A primary weakness of the UBSW is that the weakside attack tends to be just that - WEAK".  Quote from Fritz Crisler whose 1947 Michigan team was the most TALENTED UBSW team I ever saw (I have their film).

6.  Harder to teach than most other offenses.  In 1945 almost every SW coach who dropped the offense for the Tight-T & Split-T alluded to this fact).  Leahy at ND, & Blaik at Army, wrote (& spoke of this).

7.  WHY was there a "mass exodus" from the UBSW (on ALL levels) beginning around 1945 (the reasons above were FACTORS)?

PS:  Anyone wanting to discuss any of this DEEPER (there are solutions to many of these problems) can phone me (in Va) at:  804-716-7038

ATTACHMENT #1 = my 10 year old team ("B Team"), & my 11 year old team ("A-Team).  That's me sitting behind the "A-Team".  We were undefeated, & unscored on (the year BEFORE I had the 8-9 year old team),

ATTACHMENT #2 = Pop Warner comment on Center snaps:

Bill

Do I doubt your word? No. I'd like to see some film of this is all but took a shot figuring its probably all on Super 8.  :P

As to the rest of your response...I get what you are saying. Problem is you dont get what I am saying.

No biggie.

What is beautiful, lives forever.

Offline mahonz

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #342 on: June 14, 2014, 05:00:19 PM »
I agree with Mike here. The crutch is not the players but the coaches. They players can run whatever we teach them and Mike gets that for sure(maybe more than any of us). Almost all youth coaches have no idea what the ubsw even is. They have no idea how to align to it. They don't know they have resources like this site to find help. What you have drawn up and what Bill is presenting with his wt6 and shifted 6 is great but if you don't know about it you end up drawing up some crazy bs defense that will get crushed. The ubsw might as well be another sport for many youth coaches. I have on more than one occasion had Pop Warner coaches ask me what we were running with that spinning shot gun offense(we are multiple but still run a decent amount of ubsw) and I respond with "have you ever heard of Pop Warner?" Blank stares. ::)

R

I just spent all day doing YOUTH COACH interviews. I wish Bill could have been there with me.
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Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #343 on: June 14, 2014, 05:00:57 PM »
Bill

Do I doubt your word? No. I'd like to see some film of this is all but took a shot figuring its probably all on Super 8.  :P

As to the rest of your response...I get what you are saying. Problem is you dont get what I am saying.

No biggie.


Never used Super-8.  Can send it to you for $75 each (to convert 800' of 16MM to DVD) or $25 (to convert VHS to DVD).  $5 postage will do it (no charge for my time involved).  How many would you like?
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Offline Pearls of Wisdom

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Re: Defending the UBSW Offense
« Reply #344 on: June 14, 2014, 05:02:13 PM »
R

I just spent all day doing YOUTH COACH interviews. I wish Bill could have been there with me.


I probably would have to have taken a lot of Antacids to make it through that!  I talk to Youth League coaches DAILY (MANY from THIS site).

I can be reached at 804-716-7038 (between 9 AM & 7 PM/EDT).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 05:04:07 PM by billmountjoy »
My Contact Info: Coach Bill Mountjoy phone: 804-716-7038 EST /  Email: butzadams@hotmail.com