Author Topic: Update on the Killer Bee  (Read 3886 times)

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Offline DumCoach

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Update on the Killer Bee
« on: September 30, 2014, 10:27:26 PM »
Most coaches are reporting the expected results of 67-75% wins regardless of what offense they run.  One high school let its freshman team run Killer Bee versus a DW team for a 28-6 win.  Contrary to all the other success stories, one coach was 0-3 but stated it was the Killer Bee that even allowed him to stay in his games (He only lost by one TD each time).

I'm hoping he doesn't report 0-4 next week.   :D

An interesting side note is that more than one coach, after posting consecutive shut outs, has had a whispering voice on his staff suggest changing to a 5-3.  Normally, you wouldn't hear that but the Killer Bee is one strange looking defense to anyone looking at it.  The last thing you'd expect was that it would stop anything.

This is actually one of the strengths of the defense as any opponent scouting it would conclude it not only can't line up right but couldn't possibly stop their offense.  For it to win, it's like a Houdini magic trick.
 

 
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2014, 04:28:49 PM »
About 60% of all Killer Bee teams won last weekend regardless of what they run on offense.  Some of those who lost did so to vastly superior teams or it would likely be 70% wins.  However, some of the coaches in the 30% "not winning" category have simply not been able to make the defense go.  I have requested film from these coaches in order to determine if it's a coaching error or a personnel problem or what.   If it's a personnel problem I will identify the types of kids that won't work in this defense.  The two key studs being slow to react has been posted more than once.  Again, no film to know.  We have lots of 5-0 teams though to prove the defense works and they report no such problem. If it's a coaching problem I will identify the problem so it's less likely to be repeated (Obviously, if you have kids that don't move and can't tackle, it does not matter what scheme you're in, you'll lose.  I can't correct that.).  I'll never bring this system up to 100% wins but I'll certainly try (And 100% of DC46 coaches did win last weekend but I've had longer to perfect that defense.).     
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 05:10:09 PM by DumCoach »
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2014, 01:36:45 AM »
I contacted a Killer Bee coach today and he was kind enough to answer.  Although 70% wins, regardless of your offense, is probably as good as I'll ever get, I want to make sure I give the other 30% my full attention.  I don't want it to be because of something I said, or could have said, that put them in that 30%.  For example, I have a "Spill and Kill" video I made available for free (on my part - the coach showing it charges $ 5 to view it but it's $ 5 well spent).  Since "Spill and Kill" is a Killer Bee feature I wanted to know if missing this film had an impact on win/loss records.  Here is his reply to my questions:

Clark,


Defense has been working really well.  I am coaching a Pop Warner Mitey-Mite team (7-9's) this year.  I have run it by the book with no changes and we are 5 and 2 giving up a total of 7 touchdowns.  One of the losses occurred when I was missing one of my starting OLB's and we gave up three touchdowns in that game alone, mainly due to sloppy/horrendous tackling.  The other was the first game of the season and we only gave up one touchdown.  We are playing the team we gave up three touchdowns to this weekend and I expect to win


I did not watch the spill and kill video as I have run your 46 for a number of years and was very comfortable with the idea and teaching the techniques. 


I did add the one Safety drill that was discussed in the forums with the cones set at the OLB position to get them used to flowing hard down hill.


I taught my MLB's how to read guards but they don't use it much, if it all, because the guards we play generally provide no key.  It did work wonders though when we played against a UBSW team.


Biggest mistakes I see would be trying to teach too much to fast to the secondary regarding the pass defense.   Since we see so little passing I had the luxury of teaching it very slow.  We are in cloud coverage on both sides 80% of the time or more.


This wasn't so much a mistake but I ended up swapping my OLB and MLB after game two and the defense really started to hum then.  The reason is the kid I had a MLB was more of an attack first ask questions second and the OLB kept wanting to read.  Swapping them allowed them to play to their natural tendencies and it has served us well.


A 5-2 record is 71% wins which is pretty much in line with previous years results.  The OLB position is, indeed, a "go get the ball" mentality whereas the MLB will sit and read (as mentioned against an UBSW).  I did add his "cones" suggestion to the manual today which required an addition of one sentence for the "Sky" coverage.  The "Cloud" coverage mentioned above is probably the nastiest youth coverage ever invented yet AFAIK, only Jack and I employ it as a "for sale" system.

The reference to the UBSW team also refers to a "for sale" system.  "For sale" systems are for sale because they work.    But the Killer Bee is specifically designed to beat any offense "for sale".  That's because all systems for sale use angles, splits, pulling (including motion) and blocking rulesKiller Bee simply eliminates those features from the offensive equation. So it becomes equal.  Your most dangerous opponent is one who uses none of the above and simply relies entirely upon being bigger, stronger, and faster than you.  Although you can still beat this opponent, the odds are no longer 70%.  There is an old adage often mentioned on this forum that says that the team that "blocks and tackles best wins".  If the other team blocks and tackles better than you, that's hard to get around although not impossible (Jack and JJ employ "stacks" to do so while the Killer Bee employs the "kill shot".).  So, if you meet a well coached team, odds are you will beat them handily.  If you meet a team that has all the league's talent and you have none, odds are you will have a long day.

Of course, I'll eventually contact one of the 30% coaches and I promise to share that reply.  One of the factors of those 30% coaches that I have already identified is very small rosters.  Teams with 13 players on their rosters (When their opponents have 40) do not do well with Killer Bee.   But you can determine this for yourself before buying it.  The defense requires 2.5 studs to run.  The odds of having a stud on your roster at the before middle school level are 10%.  To have 2.5 studs the odds are you need 25 players on your roster.  Apparently, Killer Bee, due to the cloud and sky ("kill shot") coverage will get by on less than 25 players but not on 13.  So, if you have such such a limited roster you would be ill advised to get the Killer Bee.   There's nothing I can do to change that.  But, so far, teams with rosters in excess of 13 players have not reported a problem.  And, if you face DW one week, UBSW the next, and Spread the rest of the time, you have a defense to kill them all with.
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 04:08:36 AM »
This guy:

Most coaches are reporting the expected results of 67-75% wins regardless of what offense they run.  One high school let its freshman team run Killer Bee versus a DW team for a 28-6 win.  Contrary to all the other success stories, one coach was 0-3 but stated it was the Killer Bee that even allowed him to stay in his games (He only lost by one TD each time).

I'm hoping he doesn't report 0-4 next week.   :D

He did go 0-4.  But, once again, he didn't complain.  I have only had two coaches report losing seasons with the Killer Bee (The other got out of the "D" and lost even worse.).  As I really want everybody to win with this "D" I was wondering "What did I do wrong?"  Did I mis-explain something?  Leave something out?

So, anyway, he got his first win this weekend and he posted this message.  I bolded the key sentences:

Quote from: XXX date=1413189326
Finally! We got our first win of season after coming up short all season long.

HC gave me the defense for the week in practice, since the DC didn't make it to any of the practices. I went back to the basics as far as the install went and made sure everyone knew their role in the defense. First 2 days of practice you could see all the little light bulbs coming on in the kids heads. We went over Cloud and Sky coverages, ran cousin's drill and a lot of pass skeleton. I ran a pulling drill with our OL and decided that I would kill 2 birds with one stone and added the DEs and MLB to the drill. Gave MLB hand shield, since at the time it was offenses practice time, and had him "Read and Race" the puller to their spot. He was beating our pullers so bad that it kind of messed up the pulling drill but I was glad to see him understand the concept. Clark, I also took your advice, kind of. I had been matching the boys up based on size and speed but never once really took into account attitude and mentality. So, I didn't match the boys up exactly as you had described but went rather with their skill level and mentality. It was great to see them finally willing to compete and funny at the same time. We set up a scrimmage with the upper division team, completely against the rules but hell we needed to do something. We did more then just hold our own against them. We shut down their sweep plays and they have the fastest kids in the league. We lost if you want to call it that because they realized they were not going to get around us and everything up the middle was finally shut down; so, they began throwing jump balls to their tall WR's (5'7" and 5'9") who just took the ball away from our CBs who are shrimp boats (the 2 smallest and shortest (4'5" and 4'8") kids on our team). It was awesome to watch as their HC got more and more frustrated and even more rewarding to see our boys confidence just soar through the roof.

Game time came on Saturday. The DC comes and I explained to him what we had done during the week of practice, personnel wise and scheme wise and although he was skeptical and leery to his credit didn't try and change anything and just rolled with it. We thoroughly dismantled our opponent to the point that they got so frustrated at what we were doing both offensively and defensively that they started playing dirty. We were up big about half way through the 3 quarter and the ref over heard one of their coaches telling his stud player to "take out" our HB (my son). And 2 plays later my son is on the sideline after taking a helmet to his knee. That coach got ejected from the game and caused quite a scene. I didn't find out about all that til way after the game was over and we were back home or there would have been way worse ramifications for that coach then him just being ejected. They did manage to score on a long run once they had knock our OLB out of the game but it was meaningless, with only a few seconds left and the boys were so excited that they were going to win they forgot to play til the final whistle. They gave the HC a Gatorade (Water) Shower, as it was his first win as a HC. And one kid came up to me and said "I have never won a game in my life, no matter what sport. Thank you so much!" And gave me the biggest hug I may have ever received in my life from a non-family member. It was awesome and one of the reason I love coaching.  So to tie a pretty bow on this long post...when run correctly and taught correctly the Killer Bee can shut down even the fastest offenses. Thanks Clark!

OK. The first thing I learned was the coach that was posting losing in the Killer Bee forum was not the DC.  He was an AC (And, obviously, a very good one).  This guy had the defense down.  The next person above him (DC) did not.  I'm not critical of the DC because I have no idea what he did, but he let this guy put in the fix without interfering and IT WORKED.  I am vindicated!

I type those words with relief.  I don't want to charge somebody money to LOSE and that's what I thought I was looking at.  So I'm as happy as he is.

He mentions taking my advice.  What was it?  Not knowing how he was losing I went through the obvious checklists of how losing coaches lose.  And right at the top of the list was creating tackling MISMATCHES in practice.  Physical mismatches where the defender is inferior and in SPACE do not teach tackling.  They teach fear and hesitation. That's what he talking about.  I took a stab in the dark and it worked. 

Once again, big sigh of relief.

 :)

 
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline Dimson

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 08:29:01 AM »
Great to hear. I am considering the Killer Bee for next year as I am most likely moving up to 8U and we have to run an even front due to not being able to go head up on the center. I know a coach on here who runs it and he has been pretty successful running it and I know he doesn't have world beaters on his team.

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2019, 05:28:11 PM »
The Killer Bee is now being adopted by several high school coaches.  I figured I'd have to make changes for them and took February's record snow here to cover what I could think.  It only totaled 4 pages, one of which was defending punt (not previously in the manual.).  Looks good!
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Offline morris

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2019, 06:14:00 PM »
How did the HS do that used it?

Offline DumCoach

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2019, 12:19:46 PM »
This year they are in the state playoffs.
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Update on the Killer Bee
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2019, 07:33:16 PM »
Excellent.

I'm very glad for you, Clark, but I'm also looking at this from the selfish point of view that says that anything prominent and valuable like that coming from the "dumb coach" will probably bolster the reputation of DumCoach as a place knowledgeable people gather and where valuable info comes out of.