Author Topic: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?  (Read 11521 times)

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Offline CmartCoach

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LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« on: March 05, 2015, 01:01:29 PM »
Me again. Upon my venture into reading through this zone section of this awesome site, I can see the different versions of teaching RB reads.  I know that the "godfathers" of zone preach reading the hats of DLM on both IZ and OZ, and I also noticed that the "youth" coaches on here seem to favor reading LBs.  I understand the theory that DLM will be mpp types much more often than LBs and the desire to make the stud LB wrong.

My question is that I imagine a read of a LB could lead to RBs running into the backs of doubles or. worse yet, dancing to find a space, especially if the DLM is a plus player.  Also, it seems to me that youth DLM are much less dynamic than older DLM, meaning that they wont "run" or move horizontally as much and it seems that that would provide a much quicker read, promoting One cut and GO.  If the LB shows up, that is because the OL didnt come off of the combo?  I would think that eventually the OL would get good enough at coming off to give my stud a slight advantage over their stud?
Cmart

Offline CoachMattC

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 01:16:48 PM »
Joe is the one who should really answer this but here's how I think of it.

If you're reading the first LB inside the landmark, and you get a combo inside the landmark, the back will go whichever way the LB does not go. When the back cuts, the LB will try to correct and make the tackle. When he does that, he will have to run into the climbing lineman. To me, it makes the climber's block a much higher chance of success by giving them the angle and body position they need to beat a better player.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 01:17:40 PM »
Cmart

I have been running Zone for more then a couple of years now. I switched over to my TB reading the LB about 7 or 8 years ago. I learned the concept in a clinic with a top HS coach. His main reasoning was it was a much faster read for his RB making it easier. The other reason is at the Youth or HS level the LB's are always better players.

Here are some Zone highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbJxUEVMtgg

Our backs are reading the LB here, now to be honest this is at a small private HS we fielded 19 players, our OLINE stunk. Watch how many times the LB aren't blocked & still don't make the play.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 02:17:57 PM »
Joe

What do you actually tell the RB to read?

Example....IZ right against an even front (say a 4-2-5)  you would get a tiger and a Playside cougar call, if I'm understanding this correctly. Your landmark is the rear of the tackle or guard?

Let me add that we are gun and we have used outside leg of guard for IZ.

Or do you just tell the RB to go downhill to the bubble (B gap in this case I believe) and if the stacked LB scrapes/steps to B gap, then we jump cut to Playside A? Is that all there is to it? Seems simple enough if the double is effective but I keep imagining my RB trying to cut into an A gap that the DT has slanted into and starting to dance.

In reading the DLM hat the RB would get a b gap read right away and the PSG would get a quick release to the LB and that makes more sense in my mind. I actually WANT your reads to make more sense, because you've been so successful, but I'm not there yet....help!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 02:31:22 PM by CmartCoach »
Cmart

Offline mahonz

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 03:12:44 PM »
Me again. Upon my venture into reading through this zone section of this awesome site, I can see the different versions of teaching RB reads.  I know that the "godfathers" of zone preach reading the hats of DLM on both IZ and OZ, and I also noticed that the "youth" coaches on here seem to favor reading LBs.  I understand the theory that DLM will be mpp types much more often than LBs and the desire to make the stud LB wrong.

My question is that I imagine a read of a LB could lead to RBs running into the backs of doubles or. worse yet, dancing to find a space, especially if the DLM is a plus player.  Also, it seems to me that youth DLM are much less dynamic than older DLM, meaning that they wont "run" or move horizontally as much and it seems that that would provide a much quicker read, promoting One cut and GO.  If the LB shows up, that is because the OL didnt come off of the combo?  I would think that eventually the OL would get good enough at coming off to give my stud a slight advantage over their stud?
C

When I started in on coaching Zone I started with OZ with a group of 5th graders I had been coaching for a couple of years.

I didnt have a lot of help initially as this was about 10 years ago and there really wasn't any real zone info available. I followed Coach DeLeone's teachings. He has stuff on Coaches Choice. He was with Syracuse at the time....no clue where he is now. 

Everyone taught reading DLM so I followed the plan. Halfway thru the season I could tell we were leaving yards on the field because my RB was running into the backs of double teams or headlong into an unblocked LB'rs.

Watching film I could see for myself the Zone rotating. Not sure why that is never mentioned in any of the Threads I read but it was beat into my head by others early on. The ZONE....WILL...ROTATE ! OZ it rotates fast....IZ it rotates slow and why pre snap counting makes zero sense too me. 

So I began teaching the RB to read the next LB'r to the backside of his monument since that is the LB'r with the greatest chance to make the tackle. Joe reads the nearest LB'r to the POA if I remember correctly.

Regardless....things improved magnificently because now the RB's eyes are up all the time and down-field all the time so he can make slower decisions. By slower I mean he is literally watching the Zone rotate ( second level of the defense so more information coming too the RB ) then makes one of three decisions with that extra second to think about it and as he approaches his monument....continue the path....bounce to the sideline....cut back against the flow.

I dont think the quality of the DLM is important because someone is still blocking them.

Zone is much more than blocking....its everything rotating as one through the defense. Your RB's MUST understand this or he will leave yards on the field. Finding this kid is not as cut and dry as you might think.

My take.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 03:19:39 PM »
Cmart

Our landmark is the Tackles butt, our reads work like this.

First LB play side vs 4-2-5 that is the LB in the 20 technique (Vs a stack it would be the Mike)

If he plays downhill(or just stands there & does nothing) then we press the Zone side for the first crease(usually c gap)

If he flies out to the Zone Side(or backs up) then we stick a foot in the ground & replace him.

It's a very simple read & requires our back to get vertical ASAP, the way I teach Zone it can hit anywhere from Front side Dgap to back side Cgap. The back door cut isn't something we work on initially, the back has to develop first.

Joe

PS PM me & I will send you my phone # if you have questions.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 03:25:15 PM »
Mike

When I first started teaching our backs to read the ILB, my coaches were thinking it was too much & would cause dancing as Cmart was asking. The interesting thing is it actually made our backs make the 1 cut & go.

The other thing to remember is our backs understand our combo calls so they can almost "feel" where the creases will be. The first back in the Zone clips was the transfer we had gotten so it was his first year with us. Great young man, but he had no coaching previously. The difference coaching made was amazing, he went from a back that would just run blindly & only use his power to a hard running, jump cutting, always gaining yards player.

Joe
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Offline mahonz

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 03:46:10 PM »
Mike

When I first started teaching our backs to read the ILB, my coaches were thinking it was too much & would cause dancing as Cmart was asking. The interesting thing is it actually made our backs make the 1 cut & go.

The other thing to remember is our backs understand our combo calls so they can almost "feel" where the creases will be. The first back in the Zone clips was the transfer we had gotten so it was his first year with us. Great young man, but he had no coaching previously. The difference coaching made was amazing, he went from a back that would just run blindly & only use his power to a hard running, jump cutting, always gaining yards player.

Joe

Joe

I really really REALLY like your combo calls. That alone is why people should be listening to you when it comes to Zone regardless of formations or style. Stoooopid simple !
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 03:47:45 PM by mahonz »
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Offline DL

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 03:48:18 PM »
I can tell you from trying this last year that if you can get the backside 1,2 tech on ground with a cut.  [ I don't know that Joe advocates that, but I did it.]

And and the LB goes playside.   The cutback and replace goes all the way to the endzone as often as not because the line stretches and there is a nice hole that just materializes.   Tough to impossible play for a youth single safety to make in open field if he is flowing with the play as well. 

We had 6 to 8 runs of 50+ yard touchdowns in 3 - 4 games doing this.   This after 2 weeks of practicing it at 3x a week.   In practice we scored all the time with it against our defense.

My only instruction to the back in drills, who was 10, was attack your monument and watch the playside LB.   If he stands or blitzes blow by him in first crease, if he over plays cut back and get up field.    It didn't really take much coaching and he didn't dance.   

If I could have had more time to implement the total offense (I switched late in season) and our defense wasn't playing so god awful poorly in 2nd half of season (I don't blame the DC for the defense if he is reading this) I think we would have scored a butt load of points.   We put up 28 pts or so (I don't remember exact score) against a team that shut out nearly every opponent - problem was they put up like 36+ on us.     

This with only 3 run plays.   Zone, Stretch and a TE/WB counter I had put in earlier in the season.

We still scored quite a bit and went on quite a run offensively except for our last playoff game (we got spanked) when my RB completely checked out mentally before the game started and I didn't have a back up who could play.   











Offline MHcoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 04:07:44 PM »
Dan

Many Zone coaches will tell you in private, they want to cut on the back side all the time. We don't stress cutting the 1 as much as we will cutting a 3. Here is the reason, our Guards are better athletes than our Tackles. we like them to stay up because they can continue to work to the next level. The Tackles on the other hand, cutting is our only hope.

Now, that all being said; that is reality. In theory we want our guys to stay up & move their feet. Always having them work their block. When a Lineman struggles the easy solution is to have him cut.

It's a funny thing most youth 1's aren't very good. We have had games where we wouldn't block a "Fat Freddy" at all, from watching film I knew he would never tackle my back. That isn't restricted to Youth either. In a playoff game a few years back, our opponent had a 370 lb NG. After watching him on film make 0 tackles in 4 games we widen our guards splits & pulled our center every play. He made 0 tackles again.

Joe 
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 04:16:17 PM »
I really really REALLY like your combo calls. That alone is why people should be listening to you when it comes to Zone regardless of formations or style. Stoooopid simple !

I agree. It took me a while to come around on how having the PST set the combo calls is a great idea.  I actually had to draw it up and realize that it still accomplished the same exact combos that counting or covered/uncovered would create, but even simpler.  I guess I just need to get out on grass and teach the LB read, its hard for me to see the reads in Joe's video from the sideline angle.  I think that the 1/2/3 step vs certain 1/2/3 shades coupled with Joe's combo calls will be a great way FOR ME to coach/rep OL technique, I'm just having a hard time committing to LB reads because I feel like the DLM reads are so cut and dry.  Like Gibbs says, your wrong or you are right, LB reads seem to have more variance because of the dynamic nature of LB play. IMO, a lot of LB at our level are good to great athletes and football players, but not very good LB....
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 04:19:59 PM by CmartCoach »
Cmart

Offline mahonz

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 04:34:43 PM »
I really really REALLY like your combo calls. That alone is why people should be listening to you when it comes to Zone regardless of formations or style. Stoooopid simple !

I agree. It took me a while to come around on how having the PST set the combo calls is a great idea.  I actually had to draw it up and realize that it still accomplished the same exact combos that counting or covered/uncovered would create, but even simpler.  I guess I just need to get out on grass and teach the LB read, its hard for me to see the reads in Joe's video from the sideline angle.  I think that the 1/2/3 step vs certain 1/2/3 shades coupled with Joe's combo calls will be a great way FOR ME to coach/rep OL technique, I'm just having a hard time committing to LB reads because I feel like the DLM reads are so cut and dry.  Like Gibbs says, your wrong or you are right, LB reads seem to have more variance because of the dynamic nature of LB play. IMO, a lot of LB at our level are good to great athletes and football players, but not very good LB....

C
We coach All Star Nose Pickers. Gibbs coaches All World Athletes. Adjustments ARE necessary.  :)
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 04:53:51 PM »
C
We coach All Star Nose Pickers. Gibbs coaches All World Athletes. Adjustments ARE necessary.  :)

Absolutely.  There are guys in here that teach DLM reads though, correct?  I just want to make sure I choose the right style for me to coach, because I am not a fan of changing mid stream.  I want to commit to coaching it one way or the other.
Cmart

Offline DL

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2015, 04:56:29 PM »
Dan

Many Zone coaches will tell you in private, they want to cut on the back side all the time. We don't stress cutting the 1 as much as we will cutting a 3. Here is the reason, our Guards are better athletes than our Tackles. we like them to stay up because they can continue to work to the next level. The Tackles on the other hand, cutting is our only hope.

Now, that all being said; that is reality. In theory we want our guys to stay up & move their feet. Always having them work their block. When a Lineman struggles the easy solution is to have him cut.

It's a funny thing most youth 1's aren't very good. We have had games where we wouldn't block a "Fat Freddy" at all, from watching film I knew he would never tackle my back. That isn't restricted to Youth either. In a playoff game a few years back, our opponent had a 370 lb NG. After watching him on film make 0 tackles in 4 games we widen our guards splits & pulled our center every play. He made 0 tackles again.

Joe

My back loved the cutback.    That double backside cut block just let my tackles and guards not have to think about any combos backside on zone plays.   

Plus, I was watching Gibbs do film work on video and he  kept yelling at guards when they didn't cut backside. 

 I also had two tiny wrestlers at guards and they were good at cut blocks.   
__

That's funny about the heavy kid.   Many teams would have tried to triple team the obese kid (feel sorry for him - almost child abuse to have a kid that heavy).   When in reality you found you didn't even have to block him at all.








Offline DL

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2015, 05:08:26 PM »
I didn't even do the line calls.   I had no time because I did it all last minute.   

I just always had C/G  playside helping each other with 0-1 and T/TE helping each other with 2-3 on zone plays.  0 being closest guy to center and so forth.

So they formed little teams and we would drill them together.   I would put 2 players against them and those 2 players could line however they wanted and stunt and do whatever as long they covered the outside foot of the linemen and were within 4 yards of LOS.