Author Topic: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?  (Read 11519 times)

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Online mahonz

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2015, 05:27:41 PM »
Absolutely.  There are guys in here that teach DLM reads though, correct?  I just want to make sure I choose the right style for me to coach, because I am not a fan of changing mid stream.  I want to commit to coaching it one way or the other.
C

Zach is another regular that is heavy into Zone and a really smart Coach...as you are finding out. He might be a DLM reader. I am kinda outta the Zone loop anymore.
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Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2015, 06:46:02 PM »
Attn: ZACH

What is your take on DLM reading? Why do you not read LBs? Have you ever tried?
Cmart

Offline morris

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2015, 07:19:25 PM »
Bill Williams teaches reading lb when running zone. Google bill Williams fcpga (it's something like that). Point is the guy knows his stuff and teaches college staffs. He works with some PAC 10 schools and pro teams. Any material by bill is golden.

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2015, 07:33:16 PM »
Bill Williams teaches reading lb when running zone. Google bill Williams fcpga (it's something like that). Point is the guy knows his stuff and teaches college staffs. He works with some PAC 10 schools and pro teams. Any material by bill is golden.

Thanks Morris
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Offline morris

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2015, 09:30:38 PM »
This is the short version of Wlliams stuff with the pay side LB. Now this is IZ. The rb is going B gap. If the lb does flow you hit it. If he  flows cut it back. If the LB hides you hide behind the double team. What I like about reading the backer is I don't think your OL has to be as good coming off the double to LB. OL gets on the doubles and the RB makes the OL right. In college and pro the OL directs the RB.

Offline MHcoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2015, 09:37:48 PM »
Morris

That's the beauty of reading the ILB. Making him wrong often means you don't have to get the combo to climb to him. At the Chicago clinic I think it Dusty(Shad) who commented that the ILB's on my video looked silly. I chuckled & told him the player in particular had signed D1.

I also think every coach who runs Zone with success believes that his OLIN is weak & this is a way to compensate for the weak line. One top ACC coach told the same thing.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
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Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2015, 06:50:11 PM »
Joe, Mike

Let me throw this out there. I've read through some of the other threads on here and I think I may be starting to visualize this thing the way you guys do, maybe. But I need to try and explain it in a way that makes sense to me.

Joe, I know you use your combo calls and Mike I know know you don't necessarily use the calls but in effect your OL is doing the same thing. That same thing is this. Combos come together and against certain fronts you may see 3 combos. Defensively speaking (or non-zone blocked offenses), there are 5 interior gaps when working with a 6 man line (accounting for 1 H back or TE). In the zone scheme, there are 2 "gaps" or lanes between the combos and the bounce area outside the TE/H. By teaching your RB to read which lane the Playside LB decides to attack of the Playside combo, the RB takes the other and HOPEFULLY the backside LB flow is cut off by a the next backside combo (Or managed by a read or some other constraint).

Hopefully that made sense. But I can see that once the RB understands the combos he will be able to anticipate where the lanes will and you want him to choose the road that the LB doesn't take?
Cmart

Offline MHcoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2015, 08:02:16 PM »
Cmart

You are on the right track. The key to understanding Zone concept is to knowing a few simple things:

1) Zone is a dynamic Play, meaning it is ever changing. Zone for us very rarely is dominant in the Youth Game in the first game of the season. As the team develops so does Zone. This is why it is important to stick with it as a coach.

2) Zone must be a no loss play. This is why the back must be decisive. We can live with a 1 yd gain never a 1 yd loss.

3) Don't over think it, & don't over coach it!

Joe
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Bill Walsh

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2015, 10:21:11 PM »
I don't understand the consternation here.  The O LINE either blocks IZ,OZ (Stretch).

The backs, if the coach is smart, works more with the OL than the rest of the Offense.  The RB Coach teaches Landmarks and Reads.  IZ landmark Butt Crack to Outside Leg of the OG.  OZ Landmark Butt Crack of TE or Imaginary TE if you don't have one.    The Read is ISLB or OSLB.  Dancing is a result of either failure to coach if A then B, or A kid who cant read right.

Like Joe says this isnt a miracle offensive scheme.  Its predicated on the movement of the defense and the ability to use that movement against them! The RB will either make the OL work for him or make them look dumber than a bag of hammers!  If the RB continues to make the OL look like a bag of hammers, I suggest you replace him.  Again, as Joe points out, sometimes ya just gotta point your nose up field and climb!!

just sayin.   ;)
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Online mahonz

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2015, 10:41:00 PM »
Joe, Mike

Let me throw this out there. I've read through some of the other threads on here and I think I may be starting to visualize this thing the way you guys do, maybe. But I need to try and explain it in a way that makes sense to me.

Joe, I know you use your combo calls and Mike I know know you don't necessarily use the calls but in effect your OL is doing the same thing. That same thing is this. Combos come together and against certain fronts you may see 3 combos. Defensively speaking (or non-zone blocked offenses), there are 5 interior gaps when working with a 6 man line (accounting for 1 H back or TE). In the zone scheme, there are 2 "gaps" or lanes between the combos and the bounce area outside the TE/H. By teaching your RB to read which lane the Playside LB decides to attack of the Playside combo, the RB takes the other and HOPEFULLY the backside LB flow is cut off by a the next backside combo (Or managed by a read or some other constraint).

Hopefully that made sense. But I can see that once the RB understands the combos he will be able to anticipate where the lanes will and you want him to choose the road that the LB doesn't take?
C

Good synapses.

I will add a #4 to Joe's list.

Do everything possible to use the same 5 OLM all season long playing the same positions. They need to get a good feel for one another to include your RB's. Certainly train up a 6th man but try to use the same 5 as much as possible.
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Online mahonz

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2015, 10:49:08 PM »
I don't understand the consternation here.  The O LINE either blocks IZ,OZ (Stretch).

The backs, if the coach is smart, works more with the OL than the rest of the Offense.  The RB Coach teaches Landmarks and Reads.  IZ landmark Butt Crack to Outside Leg of the OG.  OZ Landmark Butt Crack of TE or Imaginary TE if you don't have one.    The Read is ISLB or OSLB.  Dancing is a result of either failure to coach if A then B, or A kid who cant read right.

Like Joe says this isnt a miracle offensive scheme.  Its predicated on the movement of the defense and the ability to use that movement against them! The RB will either make the OL work for him or make them look dumber than a bag of hammers!  If the RB continues to make the OL look like a bag of hammers, I suggest you replace him.  Again, as Joe points out, sometimes ya just gotta point your nose up field and climb!!

just sayin.   ;)

S

Its an odd thing to grasp. Then one day it hits you in the forehead like a bag of hammers.  :P
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Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2015, 09:45:10 AM »

Its an odd thing to grasp. Then one day it hits you in the forehead like a bag of hammers.  :P

Don't get me wrong. I understand the concept and have run zone with sprouting success, but was never fully committed to it. This year it will be full time and I know I will coach it up. I'm just trying to understand the logic behind reading the LB, because reading the DLM just makes so much sense to me and seems like an easier teach. Helmet goes this way, you go this way.  Seems like there is much less variance in those reads as opposed to trying to read a dynamic LB. I will say I can se how the dynamic nature of a LB may give a more concise read though....

I believe I have everything that I need to get me started on a very successful venture into the world of full blown zone. I just need to decide on which set of RB reads will be best for me to teach.
Cmart

Offline MHcoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2015, 10:16:09 AM »
Cmart

My first year coaching Zone, I over thought everything. I probably tortured those players. Being honest I wasn't sure it was going to work, & was sure it would be my fault. Every year since my approach has become simpler, & it works even better.

If you aren't comfortable coaching the back reading the ILB then read the combo on the DL. I can only tell you what works for me & how I do it. What I think is the real issue is that most youth DL don't do what you expect nor what they should. This makes reading them more difficult. Using an ILB is a lot clearer, because it has the built in " if he just stands there" read.

Joe
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Offline CmartCoach

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2015, 10:31:07 AM »
Joe

IF he just stands there is a good read. A lot of youth LBs do just that for a second after the snap. Especially if we are running Q counter or other constraints to the zone.

I have a feeling if I decide to read DLM, at some point after I will switch to LB reads and be all "you told me so" 😉
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 10:33:03 AM by CmartCoach »
Cmart

Online mahonz

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Re: LB reading doesn't cause dancing?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2015, 10:31:19 AM »
Cmart

My first year coaching Zone, I over thought everything. I probably tortured those players. Being honest I wasn't sure it was going to work, & was sure it would be my fault. Every year since my approach has become simpler, & it works even better.

If you aren't comfortable coaching the back reading the ILB then read the combo on the DL. I can only tell you what works for me & how I do it. What I think is the real issue is that most youth DL don't do what you expect nor what they should. This makes reading them more difficult. Using an ILB is a lot clearer, because it has the built in " if he just stands there" read.

Joe

Joe

This is a good point....goes back to running traps at the youth levels. Not a great play if the DLM aren't doing their jobs.
Collect moments, not wins.