Author Topic: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays  (Read 11322 times)

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Offline CmartCoach

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Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« on: March 12, 2015, 06:24:35 PM »
In the interest off pure simplicity, I'm considering using only zone principles for all of our schemes.  Looking for someone here to tell me it is a bad idea, as I can't really fimd much fault in it.

Basically, I plan to install Inside Zone and rep it to perfection. That will be our bread and butter. Then we can evolve to outside zone, not changing anything from IZ except technique.

Then we add QB counter and Tackle Trap, which would both be blocked the exact same, exactly like IZ, in the opposite direction.

Example, we call Trap right-entire line establishes combos and works zone as if it were zone LEFT. The only difference is the Left OT would run trap on right side EMOL (trap right). We obviously won't combo on the Left EMOL (as the tackle is trapping away from him), but we will read him. Chase (the trap), pull and and replace.

The only other run play would be Veer. Blocked again, as zone opposite.

Example, we call Veer Right. Oline blocks Zone left. Which leaves right side EMOL unblocked again, RB (aligned to the right and behind QB) target is straight ahead off of RT hip, QB reads EMOL ala veer.

Four "schemes" in one and we really limit what the Oline has to learn, allowing us to be really good at one thing, zone combos. Understand that we are a super tempo team and simplicity is our best friend. The added benefit of extra available time spent working on pass pro will help our protections as well.

I am sure this is nothing revolutionary, I just want my OLine to never have to think, at least not anything more than zone or opposite zone.

Hopefully typing on my phone, I was able to convey what I mean clearly.

What issues do you see with this approach?
Cmart

Offline Huskerprice

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2015, 07:14:01 PM »
Zone question. IZ right, emol has nobody on but DE outside of him. How far outside of him does he not worry about him or does he chase him. I get the concepts but become clouded on the edge. He will have a choice between LB and DE.

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2015, 07:27:10 PM »
Tackle or TE?

There are other guys on here that can give you actual, time tested answers to this question. However, I would only block block the DE in question if he "covers" your end man by lining up on his shoulder....of he is outside of that, ignore him. If he gets involved in the zone play, you have to move him by formation or motion or something. If he is making a play on the inside zone, he won't be able to make plays as the force player.
Cmart

Offline rangibson

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2015, 09:21:32 PM »
CmartC...I have given this a lot of thought...why not run, for example, trap and still zone towards the play. Just reassign the player(s) that would normally zone block the player being trapped by having them block a backside linebacker, or double inside. That keeps more blockers play side and you can omit a pulling guard if you trap with a backside H. Must be something wrong with that because nobody appears to do it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 09:23:35 PM by rangibson »

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2015, 09:26:24 PM »
"Zone away" is just a super simple version of block down, kick out. I don't think it would work well against active fronts but at our level most DL are pretty static....
Cmart

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2015, 11:11:42 PM »
Call me a dumbarse!  Screw Zone

Special plays require special blocking assignments!

I listened to one of the best OLine Coaches (McNally) talk about Counter for an hour plus.  Trust me it aint Zone! 

 ;)
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline morris

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2015, 11:19:47 PM »
Yes you can do it that way. Many HS teams do it that way. You can also "push" the count if you use a count system. If you don't use a count system I'm sure the zone can be adjusted to skip a defender in the count. This allows you to read or trap any player on defense as far as DL or LB. This allows you to also insert onto LBs with different people.

Go to Coach Huey and look for posts by Huey on the subject. He gives some great examples and they do a lot of it down on their MS level kids.

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2015, 11:31:53 PM »
Exactly. Pick one box defender to make wrong.  Run one scheme and "flip" it both ways like I'm saying. That keeps it super simple, then just adjust the read defender via tags that make said defender "invisible". A whole run game that can be very multiple, yet so simple so we can press the pace.

I'm just looking for a super simple way to "change it up" when the defense decides to overload away from the back to take away zone. With this scheme we don't have to change anything except the "zone opposite" and we can fake zone and run QB trap/counter. Or against teams that react to OL flow we can call trap or veer....just keep messing with individual defenders and pick the toughest ones to block and read them.

I think it would be tough to have more than one blocking scheme and teach multiple defender reads. However, with "one" scheme we could easily teach tags that "ignore" certain defenders that we will read.
Cmart

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2015, 11:36:27 PM »
Exactly. Pick one box defender to make wrong.  Run one scheme and "flip" it both ways like I'm saying. That keeps it super simple, then just adjust the read defender via tags that make said defender "invisible". A whole run game that can be very multiple, yet so simple so we can press the pace.

I'm just looking for a super simple way to "change it up" when the defense decides to overload away from the back to take away zone. With this scheme we don't have to change anything except the "zone opposite" and we can fake zone and run QB trap/counter. Or against teams that react to OL flow we can call trap or veer....just keep messing with individual defenders and pick the toughest ones to block and read them.

I think it would be tough to have more than one blocking scheme and teach multiple defender reads. However, with "one" scheme we could easily teach tags that "ignore" certain defenders that we will read.

Yes and No.  There will be plays that, if you incorporate in your Offense, that will require Other than Zone Concepts.  Just stating fact!    ;)      Help me out Joe! 
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2015, 11:39:14 PM »
I use a lot of Veer Blocking in my offense.  We are Rules Blocking yet, I have plays where the rules change!   

Never rat hole ones self!   ;)
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline Michael

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2015, 11:41:10 PM »
CmC,

I'm pretty sure you're going to have to forge Shad's name on your permission slip.
Michael can not receive PM's, emails or respond to Posts. He passed away in September 2018. To honor his contributions we are leaving his account active. R.I.P - Dumcoach Staff.

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2015, 11:42:02 PM »
Yes and No.  There will be plays that, if you incorporate in your Offense, that will require Other than Zone Concepts.  Just stating fact!    ;)      Help me out Joe!


That's what I'm asking. I think I can get away with using "zone away" as "other concepts" to keep it super simple, which allows us to play turbo fast and change up the reads. I know that this "zone away" theory is not the perfect replacement for other blocking concepts, but it may be close enough that we can just focus on getting VERY good at zone combos and utilize them both ways to give enough "flavor" to the offense that it might work?

I "guess" I am now a "quoting machine"....😁
Cmart

Offline morris

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2015, 11:50:43 PM »
It works. Zone rotates combos to the play side. Gap rotates combos to the backside. It's nothing ground breaking. Teams do it. I've always been kind of surprised more youth teams haven't taken their gap schemes and reversed them to run zone. TKO can be adjusted with be angle zone (track zone) with little or no problem. We just adjust our TKO to run rocket.

Offline morris

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2015, 11:54:18 PM »
Yes and No.  There will be plays that, if you incorporate in your Offense, that will require Other than Zone Concepts.  Just stating fact!    ;)      Help me out Joe!

What plays?

Offline CmartCoach

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Re: Zone concept for counter/trap/veer plays
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2015, 07:12:05 AM »
It works. Zone rotates combos to the play side. Gap rotates combos to the backside.

That's a great way to put it. Exactly what I mean. I've never really heard it put in that way, but it makes perfect sense. 
Cmart