Author Topic: Defending the Wing-t  (Read 62130 times)

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Offline CoachCraig

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Defending the Wing-t
« on: April 10, 2015, 11:42:00 AM »
Id like to hear your experience on defending the wing-t or if its your offense......what defensive alignments/coverages give you the most problems?

Not looking for a chalk board war.

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Offline mahonz

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2015, 02:35:58 PM »
Id like to hear your experience on defending the wing-t or if its your offense......what defensive alignments/coverages give you the most problems?

Not looking for a chalk board war.

C

A good start is playing your DLM in gaps to lesson the chance of double teams....then playing more or the same number of LB'rs as DLM so they have to climb to get you.
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Offline CoachOCD

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2015, 02:49:08 PM »
problem is wing T guys like the gap defenders so they can fold, trap, gut, wham and cross block them into submission..much of the same for head ups...WING T RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline mahonz

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2015, 02:50:45 PM »
problem is wing T guys like the gap defenders so they can fold, trap, gut, wham and cross block them into submission..much of the same for head ups...WING T RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!

...no doubles tho.  ;)  ;)
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2015, 03:00:06 PM »
I've run the belly series and could defend it well enough with my DC46 that my offense seldom scrimmaged my defense.  As an experiment I ran Buck for half a game and belly the other half to see which would do better and belly won (This was with 10 year olds). 

The nemesis of any wing T offense is probably the waggle pass.  And, although I grew up in wing T country (mud), I actually only saw it thrown twice (and one was Belleview) and it was INC.  Everybody was covered.  QB should have run.  But Belleview QB's don't run and neither did the other QB

It's the threat of the QB running that makes it so hard to cover.  Both guards have pulled out in front of the QB and every eligible receiver except the HB are all running to the same side of the field with him allowing the QB, to throw right at his man.  Every DB is committed to running with their man.  And, of course, if he chooses to run the QB has the backside pulling guard lead blocking for him.  This may be the best designed play on paper in history. 

It always works on paper.  In fact, I've never seen anyone post a "D" stopping it.  Steve Calande had a call in his "46 Gambler" (was it "Freak?") that brought his FS up to blitz over strong side "A" gap for when that guard pulled.  When I saw him do that, I figured he was facing a stud Waggle QB that could run or throw.   I don't know that certain.  It just looked that way.

But waggle can be it's own enemy.  You need a running QB for this play to work and two of your choices to run the ball have already been taken at HB and FB and maybe a third at WB.  I know my own Wing T QB's weren't runners (They could gain about 7 yards before going out of bounds.  I didn't let them get tackled on the field.).  And then they couldn't throw very far either.  The SE was almost always too far down field for the QB to hit him.   And not all receivers can catch.  You may have four receivers down field but maybe only two can catch.

And the weak side guard has to make a log block.  Any guard that can log my EMLOS deserves an award.  That QB is going to be running 5+ yards back before he ever runs 5 yards forward and then he's just made it back to the LOS.  My DC46 would bring a spy over on the QB waiting for this to happen.  My Killer Bee would screw with both pullers plus could also bring a "spy".  So, on paper, it's not quite as easy as it looks.

But, if they had the perseverance to stay at it and just rep that play to death with the right players then it's back to being famous again.

The rest of wing T doesn't scare me.  To me, wing T isn't an offense.  It's a formation (the 100/900).  It corrected the problems of the double tight, full house T (And which is where the "T" in wing T comes from.).  The goal was to run "T" plays from it but present the defense with two problems.  If they could deal with the TE on one side of the formation could they also deal with the SE on the other?  Because the offense could run the same play to either side from two different looks.  The same thing happens with the backfield.  On one side there's a HB and, on the other, a WB, and they're both running the same plays.   Can they defend both?   It was essentially, a "spread T".  And this too came out with the "Split T" and so I added progressive line splits to my offense too.

No.  I wasn't running Tubby Raymond's stuff (Though I could if I wanted) because now I could run anybody's stuff.   I had about fifty years of football plays to choose from, every single one of which could be run from my formation.  What I was looking for were plays my kids could run successfully.  My SE's, for example, might only be able to run one play out of ten you'd find on TV.  But they had that ONE PLAY.  Until my DCWT came out, youth coaches that played an SE had no plays for him at all.  He was just out there soaking off a defender and getting in his required number of plays while doing nothing but blocking the kid in front of him.  I could easily give that same kid 3-5 plays that all worked.

I tried to come up with  several plays at every eligible position and not just SE in the hopes I could find at least one the kid could run.  The moment I did that, I could give him the ball and he would have fun, be a success, and contribute to the team.  It paid the added dividend that the defense could no longer just match their two best defenders on my two backs and let them slug it out.  They had to put somebody on everybody I had and then we slugged it out.  And, if one of there's didn't match up on one of mine, we scored.

Did others defend me?  Yes.  If their guys could tackle my guys and their guys could cover my guys, I was in for a long day.  The team that blocks best and tackles best wins.  And sometimes it wasn't me.  But only twice was I ever outsmarted and lost games I should have won.  The rest of the time their Jimmy's were better than my Joe's or they secretly filmed my practice playoff during week (Illegal but commonly done against me.).

 

 

     
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 03:50:18 PM by DumCoach »
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Offline Coach Correa

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2015, 03:02:57 PM »
Honestly 4-4 at first site has kids confused because we constantly see 50 or 6-2 we go over even an odd calls starting day 1 but remember there kids and when they 1st see 4-4 its like SEEING an ALIEN. Usaully it takes a TO and the white board to come out to remember what even rules are after that visual its off to races were in my opinion the 4-4 has a lot of holes against WT.
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2015, 03:41:26 PM »
Craig

I would rather discuss what I do vs Wing T off the board. I don't need to get in any more flame wars. I sent you my number the other day.

Clark

Waggle Pass IMHO maybe the single greatest football play of all time. I have been running a version of Waggle for over 35 years at every level. Logging your EMOL isn't a necessity(See Jigger UP in the why Spread post). In the youth game I have found it to be the single deadliest play. The route we always want to hit is the Drag by the TE, I have seen coaches change the design of their defense to cover the TE. The FB out is asking for trouble because the backers want to flow & he is going against the grain. The SE can be the league president's son with stumps for hands because if my QB throws him the ball he will be playing tackle next week(See Naked Post & the Gun from the stands). The WB to the Post is a Solid call, if we get to much flow to Waggle we will throw Waggle Solid.

Understand I have used Waggle Pass as the main pass play when we were a run first team, we have used it at every age. I know I can get 10 y/o's to execute it. As far as having an athlete at QB you know I always want an athlete there first. When all else breaks down he will run.

Here's where I think most coaches have problems teaching Waggle Pass. The QB really has to stay on the ride & sell the fake. When the QB flies out of there the fake doesn't allow any reaction from the defense making the play easier to defend. We would always tell our QB's to stay on the fake as long as possible, this helps set up the blocks better & allows things to develop. Teaching patience to 10 y/o's can be like teaching a monkey to play poker.

Joe
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2015, 03:47:49 PM »
Craig

I would rather discuss what I do vs Wing T off the board. I don't need to get in any more flame wars. I sent you my number the other day.



Joe

So how will anyone else learn if things are taken off line ?

I don't get it.  :-\
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Offline Dimson

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2015, 03:49:58 PM »
Teaching patience to 10 y/o's can be like teaching a monkey to play poker.

Joe
I have seen a few dogs play poker, so I am sure you can teach a monkey.

Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2015, 03:55:49 PM »
Mike

It's a rather involved discussion, & every single time someone talks about shutting down an offense it turns into some kind of flame war. It would take me typing a book for things most guys here would never use. Craig is dealing with defending it at the HS level, so there are many little adjustments that I have done over the years.

Chris

My dogs can play "Holdem" but not "Omaha". I just made a Nonna's Pizza dough, that will be tonight's dinner.

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Offline CoachOCD

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2015, 06:52:20 PM »
I know theres a large % of 44 coaches that suggest the 44 is a wing T killer. Right up until they cant stop the tackle trap.


MH...dont worry, the wing t fanatics are tacticians at heart, unlike their emotional cousins the double wingers. Now those testosterone junkies are unable to participate in any discussion about how easy it is to stop the DW or the SW for that matter.



Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2015, 07:02:05 PM »
O

Somethings I am just not comfortable sharing in open forum. That is the blunt truth, I have been using my scheme to stop it too long to just give it up. In private is a different matter.

Joe
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Offline CoachOCD

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2015, 07:09:00 PM »
O

Somethings I am just not comfortable sharing in open forum. That is the blunt truth, I have been using my scheme to stop it too long to just give it up. In private is a different matter.

Joe
oh alrighty I gotcha...hay can you believe it I havent got any death threats from the DW brotherhood yet

Offline MHcoach

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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2015, 07:12:03 PM »
O

That doesn't frighten me, what does is we play a few Wing T teams & I don't want them to get our schemes. The fear of losing is way more intimidating than the DW crowd.

Joe
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Re: Defending the Wing-t
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2015, 07:30:30 PM »
I love it fellas there are a lot of ways to defeat 4-4 and the easiest one to me is stay between tackles using different formations and motions to get those lb's moving than open it up. 4-4 teams go crazy if you keep running write at them soon as Coaches start fighting with each other go into your bag of tricks. All of it will work when there doing things they don't want too.   
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