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Offline DumCoach

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What if?
« on: November 14, 2010, 08:44:12 PM »
I have asked two zone blocking youth coaches this question with no reply:


                  M
      E      T      T2    E2
         O  O  0  O  O

              O O

Here is the core offense (spread) and defense.  The DT's are in 2's.  The play is Inside Zone to the right.  It can also be "Give Option".  The blocking comes out the same.

E1 will not pursue the play.  He's playing the QB.  He'll step down inside to try and sucker the QB into a keep, but he's not going to defend the "Give".  When LT steps down on T1, his monument (butt) will point to unblocked E1.  This cutback is covered.

T1 has slanted between LG and center.  He'll be picked up by LT and LG but not before he reaches center's backside.  If he gets there, and he should, the runner's second monument (center's butt) points towards a defender.  The runner should not get a cutback read.  He's going to hit right "B" gap.  Somebody tell me if I'm wrong.

The blocking for right "B" gap would put center and RG on T2 and RT on E2.  E2 will be out of the play but will try and drive RT into "B" gap.

So the success of the play comes down to center and RG on T2/M.  RG needs to come off T2 and pick up M.  Correct?

If RG takes M and center takes T2, running back runs into next week.

So what can go wrong? 

I know M will deliberately wait a count before he goes to "B" gap, in order to create indecision between center and RG on who zones up to him.  He's 4 yards back.  Can this cause a problem?

And what can T2 do to screw up the play?  What if he cut RG?  Or dove between center and RG and split them?  Or hit center and swung his hips into RG?  Or slanted to "B" gap?

The defense is willing to give up both T1 and T2 as pass rushers.  What do I need to do to get past both T2 and M to hit that green grass?

I can see it but I don't want to miss it.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 03:31:40 PM by DumCoach »
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Offline seeindouble

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Re: What if?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 11:02:12 PM »
The blocking comes out the same.

 The only combo block against that formation would be between the C and the RG. And the LT has no business foolin' with that slanting DT, the RG would take care of that slant with a tight cut-off block. The LT's man is the LDE, all he would have to do was turn and hinge...

Offline cyflcoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 01:54:15 AM »
Clark, your depiction is exactly how we would attempt to block that front.  Not allowing the backside 2-tech (T1) to cross the LG's face would be critical to the play's success IMO.  If the Mike hesitates and we get movement on the playside 2-tech and a seal on E2 to the outside, we should have a nice gain on the play.  We would not ask the LT to engage T1 unless he angled to the B gap.  Instead we would try to have him extend a hand to help the guard if possible while moving to the next level.  Because of the mesh position for us in the Pistol, a hard slant inside by T2 where he gained penetration ahead of the center's block would also be tough for us to handle and still see a positive outcome without a great effort by our back.

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Offline seeindouble

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Re: What if?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 10:10:30 AM »
And what can T2 do to screw up the play?  What if he cut RG?  Or dove between center and RG and split them?  Or hit center and swung his hips into RG?  Or slanted to "B" gap?

"What if he cut RG?"

Then the RG would smother him and the C would move up to the MLB. Play it the same way that a defender has to play a cut block...

"Or dove between the center and RG and split them?"

He would get a stiff arm from the RG and the RG would move up to playside number of the MLB.

"Or hit center and swung his hips into RG?"

See above answer. Unless T2 is just a disruptive force (ala Randy White...or to please your Northwest tastes, let's say Larry Triplett ;D), the RB's aiming point on IZ as I understand it is the outside leg/hip of the OGs...

 "Or slanted to B gap?"

Then the RG would take him "where he wanted to go", and the C would move up to playside # of MLB.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 09:24:36 AM by seeindouble »

CoachKell

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Re: What if?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 06:55:25 PM »
I have asked to zone blocking youth coaches this question with no reply:


                  M
      E      T      T2    E2
         O  O  0  O  O

              O O

Here is the core offense (spread) and defense.  The DT's are in 2's.  The play is Inside Zone to the right.  It can also be "Give Option".  The blocking comes out the same.

E1 will not pursue the play.  He's playing the QB.  He'll step down inside to try and sucker the QB into a keep, but he's not going to defend the "Give".  When LT steps down on T1, his monument (butt) will point to unblocked E1.  This cutback is covered.

T1 has slanted between LG and center.  He'll be picked up by LT and LG but not before he reaches center's backside.  If he gets there, and he should, the runner's second monument (center's butt) points towards a defender.  The runner should not get a cutback read.  He's going to hit right "B" gap.  Somebody tell me if I'm wrong.

The blocking for right "B" gap would put center and RG on T2 and RT on E2.  E2 will be out of the play but will try and drive RT into "B" gap.

So the success of the play comes down to center and RG on T2/M.  RG needs to come off T2 and pick up M.  Correct?

If RG takes M and center takes T2, running back runs into next week.

So what can go wrong? 

I know M will deliberately wait a count before he goes to "B" gap, in order to create indecision between center and RG on who zones up to him.  He's 4 yards back.  Can this cause a problem?

And what can T2 do to screw up the play?  What if he cut RG?  Or dove between center and RG and split them?  Or hit center and swung his hips into RG?  Or slanted to "B" gap?

The defense is willing to give up both T1 and T2 as pass rushers.  What do I need to do to get past both T2 and M to hit that green grass?

I can see it but I don't want to miss it.

---------------M
-----E-----T------T2----E2
-------O--O--X--O--O

Here's how we handle a 4-3

Without going into numbering, If we're going to the right

C/PSG will double team T2 back to the depth of the MIKE, if M spills inside the C will pick him up, T will stay on the block
if he spliis outside the C will stay on the block and the PST will clean up the spill.

 The deeper the Linebackers are the better, that way the defense creates space for us. 

PSE will man or fan the PSDE
BSG sill step flat and work up looking insde out for a linebacker, he will take MIke if he spills back over, in the right circumstance you might get a DT on the MIKE with the C, and BSG
BST will Cut block T1

If T1 slants in between the BST and G, the BSG will Slip block him the BST will then overtake the block,that's IF he can get there before the BST reaches him (remember they are back off the C to allow for lateral movement)

If T2 screws up and cuts the PSG, he takes himself out of the play for us. 

The back has the read (2 actually) of defender located over the PSG on IZ if his hat goes out, the back will make a jump cut inside if the hat goes inside he will stay on his track for all he can get

His second read in this front would be T1 same rules hat out I go in hat in I go out, since the BSDE is playng the QB he taks himself out of the picture if he does have to cut back that far ESPECIALLY if T1 Is slanting inside!

Zone was designed to stop slanting defenses so slants get pretty much eaten up, it adapts to pretty much anything except 9 -10 in the box, but that's when they switch to Power, P/A, or the three step game
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 07:04:18 PM by CoachKell »

Offline Michael

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Re: What if?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 10:39:07 PM »
I think on the Gibbs tight zone, the C would only combo with the G on the DT if the DT comes inside.  Otherwise, the C would climb straight to the Mike.  I could be wrong, though.  I'll try to watch the DVD tomorrow, unless someone here confirms it or corrects me before then.

For tight zone, if the DT comes in, the RB is going out.  Anything else, and the RB rolls it all the way to the backside.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 10:17:03 AM by Michael »
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CoachKell

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Re: What if?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 03:25:04 PM »
I think on the Gibbs tight zone, the C would only combo with the G on the DT if the DT comes inside.  Otherwise, the C would climb straight to the Mike.  I could be wrong, though.  I'll try to watch the DVD tomorrow, unless someone here confirms it or corrects me before then.

For tight zone, if the DT comes in, the RB is going out.  Anything else, and the RB rolls it all the way to the backside.

All Zone rules say 1st they will step playside and Check their playside teammate, Noone ever climbs straight to a linebacker, lets say for example the DT steps outside 1st then rolls or rips back to the inside , if the C were to climb immediately he would leave a HUGE hole for the DT to work. 

So the rule for ALL zone linemen are check 1st , if it's there he will doubleteam if not , by the time the C's s back foot hits the ground, if he's not on a doubleteam, he's climbing

Also the cutback of the runningback depends on where the next Down Lineman Away from the original read is, he may roll all the way across or he may just cut up behind center...it depends on the front
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 03:27:25 PM by CoachKell »

Offline Michael

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Re: What if?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 03:51:31 PM »
I agree completely on the read.  My point on the "climb" (poorly made, by the way), was that tight zone was more vertical than wide zone, and there are times when the uncovered man goes to the LB in tight zone that he wouldn't go to the LB (at least that quickly) in wide zone.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32427157/Wide-Zone-and-Tight-Zone-Blocking-by-Alex-Gibbs

Wide: STAY ON TRACK & OVERTAKE DLM – DON’T
BLOCK LB UNLESS HE IS EVEN WITH YOUR INSIDE SHOULDER &
THREATENING THE GAP.

Tight: IF [DLM] WIDENS – GO UP ON LB (DO NOT CROSS OVER
WITH BACKSIDE FOOT IN TIGHT ZONE – BUT YOU DO IN WIDE ZONE).
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 04:10:55 PM »
OK.  Same example:

                  M
      E      T      T2    E2
         O  O  0  O  O

              O O

Play is IZ Right.  For the sake of simplicity, T1 and T2 slant to "A" gap to force the play to "B".  M is still 4 yards deep.  "5" tech E1 and E2 are backed off the LOS by about 2 feet or so and reading the OT's.  If OT comes out at them, that's a "run" read with a "fan" block.  They sit and let him expend his two zone steps and then slant inside to "B" gap. 

Does the runner now break it outside to "C" gap?  And RT zone up to M?  Will runner see the delayed slant?
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Offline cyflcoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 05:26:00 PM »
The end should never get to the B gap if he delays, as the OT already has inside leverage on him and targets his near ear on IZ.  I see no advantage to delaying his (E2) movement or to "reading" the PST either.  As long as T2 doesn't cross the center's face the play has a great chance to develop as the angle for the PSG should be great on the Mike.  T1 slanting to the A gap would certainly make it difficult for the back to cut back though.

Dave Hartman
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"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."

Paul "Bear" Bryant

CoachKell

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Re: What if?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 10:05:01 PM »
OK.  Same example:

                  M
      E      T      T2    E2
         O  O  0  O  O

              O O

Play is IZ Right.  For the sake of simplicity, T1 and T2 slant to "A" gap to force the play to "B".  M is still 4 yards deep.  "5" tech E1 and E2 are backed off the LOS by about 2 feet or so and reading the OT's.  If OT comes out at them, that's a "run" read with a "fan" block.  They sit and let him expend his two zone steps and then slant inside to "B" gap. 

Does the runner now break it outside to "C" gap?  And RT zone up to M?  Will runner see the delayed slant?

The Slant in by T2 will be picked up by the C and PSG then the spill (By MIKE, if it's playdside) by the PSG
A delayed slant is basically useless, because  the PSG is stepping to his outside number, the center to his inside #, if he attempts to slant he's already caught up in a double team.   

It happens very fast, by their second step they're either  2 on 1 driving a man off the ball, man on man , or climbing. 

the end can run read all he wants, he still has to defeat the TE 1 on 1, where the TE has the advantage because all he has to do is get position, though we want him to drive the DE across the field, if he cant as long as he shields the DE from shooting behind the LOS, he's done his job.  Usually no more than contact is needed to take the DE out of the IZ play.

If the End dropsor backs out we turn our onside shoulder upfield and scrape facing the sideline keeping the DE straight in front of us, our ass to the play. 

If the DE starts Slanting hard inside, he sets himself up for the OZ play. 

the runner only reads the 2 defenders he's supposed to.  Hat in I stay on track, hat out i go in.  Against a zone scheme a delayed slant is a gift, because by the time they try to initiate the slant they're already in a double team block.



Offline DumCoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2010, 02:01:10 PM »
Hmmm!  Maybe I don't understand zone blocking.  I thought the uncovered blocker took a 6" or less "lead"step followed by a "Gather" step?  And contact is made on the "Gather" step?

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRIsDr367HE&feature=fvst

The length of the gather step seems to be such that it comes down slightly ahead of the down hand.  That means the blocker has not stepped across the LOS on his second step unless he lined up offsides.   The YouTube clips I watched of zone blocking showed none crossed the LOS until their third step.

What am I missing here?  You guys have him hitting a defender on his "gather step" who is two feet off the LOS and didn't move.  Either your blockers have 4 foot long arms or I'm missing something here.  :o



 
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Offline cyflcoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2010, 03:51:49 PM »
What is the purpose for delaying the read by E2?  With an inside release by the backside tackle I understand the premise behind his read, so as to not trigger a pull read by the QB but do not understand how your playside DE benefits from being off the LOS or by attempting a delayed slant.  The playside tackle will target his near ear as a landmark and regardless of whether contact is made on his first, second, third or fourth step, he still have inside leverage and only needs to maintain that in order to provide the back a clean lane to run through.  What is it that we are missing in what you're trying to accomplish here?

Dave Hartman
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2010, 06:58:06 PM »
What is the purpose for delaying the read by E2?  With an inside release by the backside tackle I understand the premise behind his read, so as to not trigger a pull read by the QB but do not understand how your playside DE benefits from being off the LOS or by attempting a delayed slant.  The playside tackle will target his near ear as a landmark and regardless of whether contact is made on his first, second, third or fourth step, he still have inside leverage and only needs to maintain that in order to provide the back a clean lane to run through.  What is it that we are missing in what you're trying to accomplish here?

Dave Hartman
CYFL Coach

Thanks for the reply.

If the RT doesn't make contact with the "5" tech E2 in 2 steps and E2 moves to a "4" tech, you no longer have inside leverage.

Correct?

The RT used an "uncovered" blocking rule when he's actually "covered".  Did E2 just create a problem?  If so, how do I beat it?

I'm just looking for what can go wrong.
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Offline Michael

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Re: What if?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2010, 07:26:14 PM »
He might be considered covered.  I believe a guy in the playside gap covers you.  You're not uncovered unless the DLM is far enough over to cover the guy next to you.
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