Author Topic: What if?  (Read 6530 times)

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CoachKell

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Re: What if?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2010, 07:52:38 PM »
Hmmm!  Maybe I don't understand zone blocking.  I thought the uncovered blocker took a 6" or less "lead"step followed by a "Gather" step?  And contact is made on the "Gather" step?

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRIsDr367HE&feature=fvst

The length of the gather step seems to be such that it comes down slightly ahead of the down hand.  That means the blocker has not stepped across the LOS on his second step unless he lined up offsides.   The YouTube clips I watched of zone blocking showed none crossed the LOS until their third step.

What am I missing here?  You guys have him hitting a defender on his "gather step" who is two feet off the LOS and didn't move.  Either your blockers have 4 foot long arms or I'm missing something here.  :o

Not sure why you are lost, but I think You are not taking into account the the DL is coming forward as well.  Even if the DL is 2 feet off the LOS, the steps are the same, the PSG/C will both step playside, and then move vertical, it doesn't matter if contact is made within 2 , 3 , 4 or 5 steps, they'll keep pressing vertical till they make contact .  They are going to Check until contact is made. 

Offline cyflcoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2010, 10:36:53 PM »
Since IZ is what we would deem a "vertical push" (we actually just refer to it as push) scheme, our kids should step with their playside foot, aiming at the near ear of the defender.  I agree with CoachKell that the offset is not enough to prevent the tackle from making his block, particularly if the inside movement by E2 is delayed at all.  If he did happen to cross his face, the tackle would try to wash him down so the back could bounce outside.  The best opportunity to blow the play up would be to disrupt the combo inside IMO. 

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Offline mahonz

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Re: What if?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 12:28:44 PM »
I think a flexed D lineman would take away a good punch and mess with that O-linemans head a little. He has been trained....step and load...step and punch.

Now there is some adding thinking involved and he may have a tendency to chase which is kinda OK at times for OZ but never what you want for IZ. Right?.

Coach Mike
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Offline coachJR

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Re: What if?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2010, 12:08:20 AM »
Coach,

You can get as complicated or exotic with Zone Blocking as you can imagine.  Or you can keep it simple.

IMO, this is the best primer on Zone that I've found.  http://www.hawgtuff.net/ZoneBlockingManual_BASH.pdf

I am new here, so I don't know that anyone has shown that here.   If they have and I missed it, I'm sorry.

I also like the way this is broken down too. http://incolor.inebraska.com/mays/insidezone.htm

A defense can try to mess you up with exotic slants and stunts, especially against younger zone blockers.  I think that's where having a good counter and trap play built in keeps them honest. 
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Coaching HS now.  We run DW from the shotgun spread, and 3-4 Defense.

Offline mahonz

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Re: What if?
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2010, 02:56:00 PM »
JR

I like that BASH manual. Its laid out well. Thanks.

We started teaching OZ about 6 seasons ago with very good results. We went IZ one season with poor results. We did not zone at all last season because we were an Empty team.

I dont know but I think a flexed defender would put the O-lines rules of enguagement in conflict...even if that defender just sat and read the play. I think the O-line would have a tendency to chase.

Interesting tought process anyway. A flex would certainly take away and traps.

Coach Mike
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Offline defensewins

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Re: What if?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2010, 07:22:52 PM »
Dumcoach:

If I saw a defense doing what you were describing, I'd be asking for the OC to run OZ.

Offline DumCoach

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Re: What if?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2010, 08:13:30 PM »
Dumcoach:

If I saw a defense doing what you were describing, I'd be asking for the OC to run OZ.

I have that base covered.   ;)

Does that mean you agree with Mahonz?  I value your opinion.
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CoachKell

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Re: What if?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2010, 07:26:50 AM »
I dont know but I think a flexed defender would put the O-lines rules of enguagement in conflict...even if that defender just sat and read the play. I think the O-line would have a tendency to chase.

Coach Mike

Mike, could you explain ?

To me it's no different than walk up LB.s running twists, we had ZERO issues with that with our MS team, god we welcomed it..I cant figure how  flexed lineman could cause any problem at all really,  unless he was a better athlete than the 2 lineman that are going to block him. 

I would think a Flexed D Lineman would be food for a zone team .


 

 

Offline mahonz

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Re: What if?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2010, 01:01:40 PM »
Mike, could you explain ?

To me it's no different than walk up LB.s running twists, we had ZERO issues with that with our MS team, god we welcomed it..I cant figure how  flexed lineman could cause any problem at all really,  unless he was a better athlete than the 2 lineman that are going to block him. 

I would think a Flexed D Lineman would be food for a zone team .


 

Rich

I see a flexed defender giving a muddy read to the OG / OT...front side and back side.

If the OG is covered and his man goes backside…that defender is now the next man away block. So the OG is looking to take over the next mans block playside. If the OT’s man is flexed and reading, for example it stalls the rotation of the zone and the back gets clogged....is how I see it. 

Regardless of what the flexed defender actually does he is creating extra space and adding footwork for the O-line. This gives the LB’r a free shot because the O-line is working off of that flexed defender before they climb.

Its what Kansas City used to do to the Broncos back in the day. They put some added space between their D-line and the Broncos O-line so they could run with the zone rather than getting cut down. It worked but took really good athletes to accomplish…which they had. 

The entire thinking was…stay away from the blocks. The Chiefs would stress keeping their feet free. I see these flexed DE’s doing the same when it comes to zone blocking.

At least thats how my tiny brain is processing it.

Coach Mike
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CoachKell

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Re: What if?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2010, 05:26:22 PM »
Rich

I see a flexed defender giving a muddy read to the OG / OT...front side and back side.

If the OG is covered and his man goes backside…that defender is now the next man away block. So the OG is looking to take over the next mans block playside. If the OT’s man is flexed and reading, for example it stalls the rotation of the zone and the back gets clogged....is how I see it. 

Regardless of what the flexed defender actually does he is creating extra space and adding footwork for the O-line. This gives the LB’r a free shot because the O-line is working off of that flexed defender before they climb.

Its what Kansas City used to do to the Broncos back in the day. They put some added space between their D-line and the Broncos O-line so they could run with the zone rather than getting cut down. It worked but took really good athletes to accomplish…which they had. 

The entire thinking was…stay away from the blocks. The Chiefs would stress keeping their feet free. I see these flexed DE’s doing the same when it comes to zone blocking.

At least thats how my tiny brain is processing it.

Coach Mike

Ok I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree, I can't see (in my brain) where it would cause an issue.

Offline defensewins

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Re: What if?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2010, 01:46:05 AM »
I have that base covered.   ;)

Does that mean you agree with Mahonz?  I value your opinion.

I have to ask how do you have OZ covered?

We still could run IZ.  If we are hell-bent-for-leather on running IZ to a look like this (I don't know why one wouldn't like OZ here): RT eats E2 for breakfast while he waits to slant (see below), LG would take a scoop step and set T1's feet (as we'd have him out-leveraged), RG and C would attack T2 with eyes on M.  LT would take the same step as LG and, in this scenario, probably go hit a skinny kid downfield (there is no WLB shown) as the QB reads the BSE (or boots away to block the BSE). 

However, we run IZ a little different than most.  We do not take a lateral step at the snap.  We take an attack step at the aiming point of our immediate gap threat.  The RG is not panicking in any way.  T2 was his immediate gap threat that he attacked and engaged with.  RG will stay engaged with T2 until another defender threatens his gap (potentially M). 

I would have confidence that the LG would scoop/cut off T1 every time and the play would be a backside A gap hit.  You take that away from me by putting T1 into a shade or 1 tech on the C.  My knee-jerk reaction would be to fold block the C and BSG (which is great until you slant T2 into the front side A gap).  Then I go back to the normal way, creating a double team on the shade with the C and BSG to the M OR simply having the BSG wash down T1.  Now it is a backside B gap hit. 

But at the end of the day, just skip all of the tomfoolery and run OZ.  PS drops = reached.  Jamming everything inside = reached.  Defense = gashed. 

Lastly, the offense has 6 to block the 5 defenders (as drawn).  The BSE is blocked via read or boot.  I'm actually starting to like IZ more here now that I think about it because the BST is essentially lead blocking to a skinny kid for a backside B gap hit (as drawn). 

Offline seeindouble

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Re: What if?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2010, 11:13:18 AM »
 I can see a direct snap creating a triple team on M. Direct snap to TB, QB kicks out RDE, send RT up to M and you're off to the races. Mix that up with the normal way that you run zone, M and the RDE won't know what hit em'...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 11:31:53 AM by seeindouble »