Author Topic: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll  (Read 4331 times)

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Offline Texan

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Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« on: July 26, 2016, 12:24:25 PM »
Doing a bit of my own research here....

Last year, I coached the Oline at the local high school where my son plays.  Many of my old youth boys are all at the same school.  The OC and I would argue using the count system  vs. his "block an area in a silo" concept (Chris Ault).

When we ran the count, we executed, but the OC just could not buy into it (the same guy could not understand why we could not run a pin pull scheme without a tight end...I digress)

Long story short, I am no longer coaching ... haha.  The conflict was just too much and no matter how much hard evidence, film, etc I produced, the guy just would not embrace it.

I look at my son's play book last night on Hudl and in big capital letters in the run playbook it says, "Important that our oline is taught to block areas and not players".  I smack my forehead.

Anyway, been a while since I've been on the forum.  Want to get some feedback and a pulse for how everyone is teaching zone.  Who's the idiot, me or the OC?  Given that the new Oline coach has not made it to a practice yet while I sit and watch practice in the bleachers and the oline stands around in practice figure I may get a call back at some point and start the argument all over again.

Offline ZACH

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2016, 12:34:39 PM »
Area is essentially memorizing blocking schemes and fronts. It a more complicated way of running zone in my opinion
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Offline Michael

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2016, 12:35:41 PM »
We count.

Areas don't make tackles.
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2016, 02:48:49 PM »
TKO - we block a path/area.

Won't say we're all that good at it however...

Offline CoachMattC

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2016, 03:19:21 PM »
I use Joe's system, which is neither. But if I had to change I would go to counting.

Like everything with scheme all that matters is if you can teach it. Clearly this guy has an idea what he wants, but can't teach it effectively and can't get an assistant to do it for him. Ideas can be as complicated as the coach can handle on paper, as long as it's simple for the kids. Maybe he should get someone else to coach his group and take the line himself if it's such a big problem.
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Offline Bruceja

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2016, 07:52:16 AM »
Why not just covered, uncovered?

Offline Texan

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2016, 11:53:22 PM »
Why not just covered, uncovered?

Yep, taught this.  Old Mountjoy/Skins stuff.   We ran over everyone from 6th grade to bringing my guys up to Soph. (had a 1500 yard rusher on the Frosh team...5'0 125...It was the LINE with the kid hitting MONUMENTS)  OC is a big Chris Ault guy (met him, very nice man) but refuses to look at Gibbs, Mountjoy, Cable, etc.  I keep producing articles about how Alabama does it, the Broncos do it ...

Ault teaches "silos"...as previously put on this thread.... "areas to do not tackle people"...brilliant. 

Met Ault last year...flat out admitted that he caught lightning in a bottle with Kap and a new scheme...just about said it was a crap scheme and he got lucky with nobody expecting the read option.  He did not even know what I was talking about with counting the zone....

Zone is simple...

Red-White (for the coach, power vs. counter vs. IZ vs. OZ)
Covered-Uncovered
Know your count pre-snap.

So easy....yet so hard for some to understand....

Offline Michael

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2016, 06:54:57 AM »
We counted and then used covered/uncovered to create the combos.
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Offline morris

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2016, 09:10:00 AM »
We use Angle zone. We don't count but used covered/uncovered. We read LBs not DL. Our aiming points are tighter than most zone teams. Ours are over the Center but we can change it to the A, B, C gaps. We use Joe's line calls to get the combos. Michael has a really good system too. We use a version of Michael's Two Board, Three Cone, DLS sled work and work in 3 man pods.

I think people get too hung up in this count, covered/uncovered, silo or whatever. I don't like the count because of stacks. If I didn't face so many stacks it might be different. The silos I would guess would be similar to how we teach our half slide protection. Our HS teaches zone using the same exact steps as their slide scheme.

Is the lack of success due to players not blocking the right person? Is it due to the RB not running zone correctly? Is there a talent issue?

All the different methods of zone get people accounted for and blocked. The difference comes from the whiteboard to the practice field to the game field.

Offline Michael

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2016, 09:13:01 AM »
Our rule with stacks is to count the LB as being slightly to the backside of the D-Lineman.
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Offline morris

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2016, 09:45:29 AM »
I like that rule because it helps speed up the count and I think is easier for kids to understand. The thing is with a stack that you rarely block your number. As an adult with experience I get it. I've got coaches that it takes awhile for them to get it. I have kids that have a hard time keeping it straight (which in part is on me as a teacher). What we've started doing now appears to be working. We don't even talk about LBs. in drills we are getting them at times naturally.

Granted Angle is a little different than typical IZ. Most people talk about vertical push with IZ. We get a vertical push but we are much more horizontal than many IZ team runs

Offline Texan

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2016, 11:02:02 AM »
Yes, in a stack, the LB gets the higher number.  Easy teach. 

0 tech NT do not get counted front side (they are -1 and the responsibility of the BSG).

Offline Michael

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2016, 11:34:03 AM »
Yes, in a stack, the LB gets the higher number.  Easy teach. 

0 tech NT do not get counted front side (they are -1 and the responsibility of the BSG).

My way works out higher number on the backside and lower number on the frontside.  Mike in a stack becomes the backside 1.
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Offline morris

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2016, 12:21:04 PM »
Yes, in a stack, the LB gets the higher number.  Easy teach. 

0 tech NT do not get counted front side (they are -1 and the responsibility of the BSG).
That's not how Bill teaches it. In his count the stacked backer is 1 to the backside. His attachments don't use negative numbers. He counts like Michael counts or at least close.

The way you are teaching it in a way takes the problem I have with the count away. The way you do it the stacked Mike is 0 and the 0 tech is 1/-1. That causes less brains craps because the BSG will go for 0 and C combos to 00/Mike. In the typical count fashion where the DL gets the lower number the BSG has Mike by count though he will rarely block him. MS kids have an issue with that at times.

We went covered/uncovered with calls and said screw it. Angle is Angle. Hit them and take them on the angle you find them.

Offline Texan

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2016, 12:30:02 PM »
Yeah, got the negative numbers from someone else.  That's what we taught though, worked out.

I think the nose thing came from a phone conversation.  Work out too though.  I want my C on Mike as much as possible to run IZ.