Author Topic: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll  (Read 4329 times)

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Offline morris

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2016, 12:57:55 PM »
I agree with you Texan and I'm sure your way works. I would bet there is a way to teach area that is similar and will get similar results.

Offline defensewins

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2016, 06:29:05 PM »
I coached HS for the last ten years...the last five/six years we got really good at IZ when we COUNTED.  I've had a LOT of great discussions with OL coaches that do things differently.  And I am a firm believer that it doesn't matter what the words are as long as your kids can understand the coaching and execute efficiently. 

Now, I am at the Junior College level and we don't do count or covered/uncovered.  We identify the box (number of defenders inside of both tackles...so usually a "2-2" box against even front teams and a "1-2" box against an odd front team. 

As with anything, the devil is in the details.  How are the combos going to work?  How is an overhang play side going to be handled?  Do those answers align with what the back is taught?  Is the system easy enough for the coaches to teach and the players to execute?  Is the system easy enough to manipulate/create answers for "surprises" on game day? 

With all of that said, if I was an HC (or OC with autonomy), I would only use the count system.

Offline ZACH

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2016, 11:04:36 PM »
I coached HS for the last ten years...the last five/six years we got really good at IZ when we COUNTED.  I've had a LOT of great discussions with OL coaches that do things differently.  And I am a firm believer that it doesn't matter what the words are as long as your kids can understand the coaching and execute efficiently. 

Now, I am at the Junior College level and we don't do count or covered/uncovered.  We identify the box (number of defenders inside of both tackles...so usually a "2-2" box against even front teams and a "1-2" box against an odd front team. 

As with anything, the devil is in the details.  How are the combos going to work?  How is an overhang play side going to be handled?  Do those answers align with what the back is taught?  Is the system easy enough for the coaches to teach and the players to execute?  Is the system easy enough to manipulate/create answers for "surprises" on game day? 

With all of that said, if I was an HC (or OC with autonomy), I would only use the count system.

Can i like this post a dozen times

A lot of schools count the box...a lot of what gibbs did was box count and front identification.

Area blocking involves scouting and a lot of flash card time, general rules seldom apply. What it does do is give you an oppurtunity to pick the best blocking scheme vs the defense. Can it be taught sure... after a brief rns stint i beleive anything in youth is possible...will be coaching intensive and i hope you have atleast an hour a day to get this in.
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Offline Gonz62

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2016, 04:12:48 PM »
New to zone blocking. What do you do with a DLM in the gap (Not a 3 tech or a 4i) play side? Like the nose playing "A" gap and DT playing "C" in a 5-3.  NO one's covered. Coach wants 3 ft splits.

Offline Michael

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2016, 04:14:38 PM »
New to zone blocking. What do you do with a DLM in the gap (Not a 3 tech or a 4i) play side? Like the nose playing "A" gap and DT playing "C" in a 5-3.  NO one's covered. Coach wants 3 ft splits.

Someone is always covered.  Adjust your definition of covered so that when the area one O-Lineman covers ends, the area the next O-Lineman covers begins.
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Offline CmartCoach

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2016, 04:20:35 PM »
We count (though we use A,B,C as opposed to numbers).

Center always identifies the "Ace" defender, the Playside A gap defender. DLM are always "counted" before stacked defenders. We always consider a 0 tech Nose to be the "ace" but we never count a stacked Mike Playside, he is always backside (-1).

Then we give the kids 3 rules.

PLAYSIDE

1. Identify YOUR defender and call/point him out.

2. If your defender is on or near the LoS, target Playside #.

3. If your defender is off the LoS, find the "nearest ear" and double team that defender.

BACKSIDE

1. Identify YOUR defender and call/point him out.

2. If your defender is on or near the LoS, target Playside #.

3. If your defender is off the LoS attempt to double team the first defender to your Playside.

Basically, on the frontside we will sometimes have a double with the center and guard on an 1 or 2i tech "Ace" but we will never get a guard and tackle double on a backside 3 tech.

We also add another permanent rule to our "uncovered" guys (the ones who identified their defender OFF the LoS, we don't use the terminology "uncovered") NEVER CHASE a defender, if a defender is slanting away from you, continue to second level.

We tell our "covered" players that they have to maintain the block on their defender through the play NO MATTER WHAT. Slow Oklahoma is a great drill to instill this concept.

If (and that's a big IF) we get VERY good at this we will eventually start teaching our "covered" guys to come off of the combo when the player slants backside. We have only don't that once with a advanced few lineman.

So who blocks the LBs? Our backs. If we are in a single back set, our ball carrier reads the LB to determine his running lane....hit the frontside A gap full steam (he best but is no cut), if the gap gets clogged by the backer, jump cut to backside a gap.

The key is finding the right kid who can determine which gap to take without hesitation.
Cmart

Offline blockandtackle

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2016, 06:51:13 PM »
Yeah, got the negative numbers from someone else.  That's what we taught though, worked out.

I think the nose thing came from a phone conversation.  Work out too though.  I want my C on Mike as much as possible to run IZ.

We track block our zone, similar to the "silo" approach described earlier.  It works and is great for handling slants... but you have to coach it right.  Steps, angles, and "eye discipline" are key.  You have to rep it on grass against live bodies.  We add what amounts to an "uncovered" rule in there to get combos, though we don't use that language.

I love it.  It's something I'd feel comfortable teaching to just about any group of kids anywhere if I had to pick one thing to run.  I also feel like you can take that one blocking scheme and build a pretty diverse offense just off the one thing when you incorporate reads and a few simple tags into it, which is kind of the holy grail of football schemes in some ways.

A pure count system has its drawbacks, too.  Kids, especially young kids, can turn it into a bunch of one on one blocks and can get hung up on the idea they've got to block that one guy and go chasing him, leaving their gap open for another defender to stunt into it.  You still have to coach the angles and footwork.  It can also really struggle against teams who stem late.  It works, though, if you fold all that other stuff into it.

Both are fine.  There's no one true way.  I've used count and covered/uncovered in the past.  I prefer what we've got.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 04:03:09 PM by coacharnold »

Offline blockandtackle

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Re: Count System vs. "Block an Area" - informal poll
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2016, 02:04:51 AM »
Can i like this post a dozen times

A lot of schools count the box...a lot of what gibbs did was box count and front identification.

Area blocking involves scouting and a lot of flash card time, general rules seldom apply. What it does do is give you an oppurtunity to pick the best blocking scheme vs the defense. Can it be taught sure... after a brief rns stint i beleive anything in youth is possible...will be coaching intensive and i hope you have atleast an hour a day to get this in.

I respectfully disagree.

We block an area on zone.  That area is simply our play side gap.

Our rules:

1.  Step play side and go up through the silo, picking up the first thing you see with eyes staying in your gap.

2.  If your play side gap is open but you have a man shaded head up or backside on you, then you can "one armed bench press" and drive up through his near number to the next level, keeping eyes in your play side gap and play side arm free until something shows.

3.  We will allow our C to "wrong step" vs. a 2i or 1 tech backside on IZ.

That's pretty much it in terms of rules on WHO to block.  No need for flash cards or fancy front terminology.  That's our zone.

We DO coach the crap out of technique and footwork, which include first step, second step, punch, hand placement, roll the hips, get belt buckle to belt buckle and lift him out of his shoes, short choppy drive steps with a good wide base, and finish the block by putting him on the ground.  That takes time, but not "one hour a day."  We do it in about 20-40 min. of individual a week, then reinforce it during inside run drill and team.